Unreliable Narrator: the TV Series - Ashley and Joel Discuss “The Ruthless Pursuit of Blood With All a Child’s Demanding” Anne Rice’s Interview with the Vampire S01E04 - AC016

Unreliable Narrator: the TV Series - Ashley and Joel Discuss “The Ruthless Pursuit of Blood With All a Child’s Demanding” Anne Rice’s Interview with the Vampire S01E04 - AC016

Joel: The Articulate Coveen is the original unofficial podcast and fan community for An Rice's interview with the Vampire and An Rice's Immortal Universe from AMC and AMC Plus.

Joel: Welcome to the Articulate Cove. We're your hosts.

Ashley: Ashley Wright Eiler.

Joel: And Joel Sharpton, and this is the articulate coven. Ashley Ashley This episode was so

Joel: fantastic.

Ashley: I love the rest. This is our first episode from someone else's perspective.

Joel: Man, and doesn't that open well, first of all, we're gonna dive right into spoilers, I think, because at at this point, you should know whether or not you're watching this show and don't listen to us before you watch the episode.

Joel: We're just looking good there. It

Ashley: was very good. We both are doing very large. Yeah.

Joel: We have some knits to pick, but we need to just get to it. Man. Okay. So I think the the way that they did this narrative and there's one other thing that I'll just go ahead and say. You and I talked about it I think earlier in the week off air, I started I just started, like, maybe even finished the first chapter of Pandora. I started my reread because that's the next one that we're gonna get to after the witching out. I'm

Ashley: so excited.

Joel: It's very exciting. It is very exciting. But I was reminded that all of the books, and I believe, actually, if we go back and check, I think MIMNOC is is written from this perspective too. All of the books after the tale of the body thief, and definitely after MEMBOC. All of those books are dictated to or written in some shorthand and then given to and edited by David Talbot. All the books all the rest of the books in the series are edited by David Talbot as told to David Talbot etcetera etcetera by whichever vampire is. Mostly, let's start. We get a serious book. We get a Pandora book. We get an Ormond book. We get a Victoria book, etcetera etcetera. But all of it is like epistles to David Talbot, basically. And so knowing and and then at the end of this episode, we get the episode insider from Roland Jones, and he talks about how excited the writing room was to tackle a different voice. I boy, I'm gonna eat my words and I'm gonna sort of be mad a little bit if it happens that we don't actually get a list that series. I think I think we may just get different seasons or different arcs of this show from all the different vampires' points of view. And then that continues to be accurate that this is an interview with the vampire. It's just that, I mean, maybe the fans are right. There's a lot of speculation from the fandom that Daniel Malloy is going to be David Towlett in the in the books. And so we get Eric Biegosian for several seasons. They do the tail of the body thief and Eric Bogosian gets retired and we get a we get a new younger a new younger Daniel in a in a new young body that gets to be maybe vampire Daniel at that point. From then on. I don't know whether they're gonna do that. Exactly.

Ashley: But,

Joel: I mean, it would make sense. You could you could tell it to Daniel as long as he's there.

Ashley: Yeah. This episode was the first time that I got that vibe that, oh, shit. Are they gonna combine David and Daniel? And this was the first episode that I I really got that vibe.

Joel: Not just that. Because

Joel: it's

Ashley: in my notes from from this episode.

Joel: I for a just for a second, I thought to myself, what if they make tail of the body of Louie's story? Oh, I -- Oh. -- wouldn't Louis be the one that you could talk into? What what I mean, can't couldn't you at least make the argument of the writer's room? That it would be more true to Louis' character to be talked into returning to mortal form.

Ashley: Oh, I I think that that is something that would be a bridge too far for a lot of people.

Joel: It would certainly make me angry. It would certainly make me angry at least in theory. But like I've said before, I'm giving this writers a lot of a lot of wrote. Anyway, I saw some potential for where they could be going or what they're going to do in the future. That I don't I don't love in theory, let's see just how it plays out. And maybe we're wrong on our speculations too. But this is the -- Yeah. -- episode to me that broke it open And it's like, oh, they might do they might do all sorts of things here based on the the point of view shift. Alright. So let's talk about our her leading lady. Our our third is finally here in the series, four episodes in, more than halfway through this first season, and yet you know, not just still the whole show, literally still perspective and the and the point of view narration from from our leading man, Louie. What do you think about Claudia? What do you think about Bailey Bass?

Ashley: I think that the casting was was brilliant. Her performance is so fun. She's really you know, everything about Claudia that that kind of loved and reveled and being a vampire because Claudia had a pretty good had a pretty good time. You know, she was very much like L'Estat in a lot of ways as far as her habits and her and her, you know, her proclivities and preferences and things like that. And so I'm really excited that they're showing her and having an enthusiasm for being like a young teen gives it even more energy than like a a a little child, a small questioning child. I think that this just puts you in a in a better place And and we don't have to take as long with her growing up part of the story. It doesn't have to, you know, it doesn't have to be over as many decades, and she's already on the brink of that anyway. I don't love the accent. No. I don't love it. It makes me kinda uncomfortable, but it did get a little bit better as it went along, or I stopped caring as much. Either way, I'm fine with it.

Joel: I think I think it's that second one, honestly. I've I've thought the same thing too, Ashley. You know, on the on the rewatch, it it bothered me less as I got near the end of the episode the first time, it had bothered me less definitely by the time I was at the end of the episode the second time. The accent was bothering me less, but at the same time, I'm like, yeah, I mean, maybe you're just getting used to it. And overall, you do like her portrayals so much. I also think this, and I honestly, I might go this week sometime and watch some clips and skip back and forth to compare. I think this accent sticks out as as particularly bad, only in a show that so far has done accents so well.

Ashley: Yeah.

Joel: I think if you I think if Bailey's portrayal of Claudia here was in, like, the third season of True Blood, I think we would think she's at least as good as half the

Ashley: kids. Absolutely. And better than most

Joel: of them, you know.

Ashley: A hundred percent. I totally agree with that. Like, and I and I do think that part of it is that she's just really charming. Like, her per trail, her performance is so charming in a weird way that you just stop caring. You stop minding as much. And I'm sure they have people working with her on set, and I'm I can only expect that that's gonna get better as the season goes on?

Joel: Well, and you would imagine definitely between seasons theoretically. The the transition. She spent a lot of time and character. They've perhaps honed in on exactly what they want from her. Here's the other thing though that just occurred to me and this literally popped in my head as you were saying that. I wonder if part of it is literally direction. We just talked about this whole point of view shift and and the change in tone as we hear from, you know, Claudia's words and the diaries versus Louis as reported to Daniel, maybe she was even instructed. Hey, look, Claudia's life is like, hey, melodrama. Maybe it's about literally that for Claudia, this is a different show. You know, L'Estat is in this period, European drama, Louis is in jazz epic, and and Claudia is in, you know, a a nineteen forties soap opera sort of thing kinda I don't know. But It's a lot. It's a lot. She's a lot. There's no doubt of that. And though everybody is in on that. That is absolutely true to to the book portrayal of Claudia Claudia is

Ashley: a lot.

Joel: A killing machine among yeah. She's a lot. I do particularly love this sort of explanation or I don't know what you wanna call it. They make reference to being fourteen years old. You know, Claudia is fourteen years old when she's turned in series. She's constantly got the appetite of metabolism of a fourteen year old and having a fourteen year old Yeah.

Ashley: Like a hungry the team that you can't keep full of food.

Joel: Yeah. I mean, you you know, the the I've got a thirteen year old, a fourteen year old boy myself. They are literally bottomless pits. You can they can eat everything in the house and then they still go, well, do we have any of x or y or z? No, friend, there is no more. You you've got to not gorge yourself.

Ashley: You hate it all. You

Joel: hate a man that drives your size. So I loved her ferocity, and I I like the idea that It's not just because she's necessarily evil or or malmade. She's literally stuck with this stew of hormones and her body in a state of change EXCEPT IT'S GOING TO BE THAT WAY Eternally.

Ashley: WELL, AND RIGHT OFF THE BAT SHE'S EXPERIENCING SO MANY NEW THINGS FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME SHE'S IN THAT room in their house. She thinks she's in heaven because she's never been in a room that nice. And so she's experiencing all of these crazy heightened things that especially as a young teen, you would be super cranked about. Like, Holy shit. I'm rich now. I've got a pretty outfit to wear. Oh my god. We get to go do x, y, and z. You know, like, I've got we've got a car I'm seeing these two men in love for the first time. They got a funny way of being nice to each other. Like, she's just seeing so many things so many new things for the first time and it's I was excited to kind of go through that with her. I loved, loved, loved, and

Joel: I think this is done on purpose. I'm gonna hold I'm gonna hope that it's done on purpose, but it's not it's a happy accent. I love the portrayals of Louis and L'Estat in this episode as seen through the eyes of Claudia. Louis is more kind, more human, more personable, more straightforward and forthright, than he's ever been in the series so far. He is, as someone said in the comments on our Facebook group, he's more he's the most Louis that he's ever been in this in this episode. And it occurred to me, really, the character of Louis in the books, is only seen in the reflection of his love for Claudia and her love for him. And then Lestat's love for him. We we sort of get glimpses of it through our mind too. But the carrier the character of Louis himself is sort of a cypher. He's that he's that eor of empires that that we've referred to in the past. You know, here in the series, he's been given so much more agency and charisma and and, you know, Joana Veeva, so to speak. Right. But here with Claudia, we see a lot of the real honest to God book, Louie. And it's really nice to see. Likewise, distillate is more cruel, you know, more simple. He's less sympathetic and less charismatic here. He's rude in a

Ashley: way that he He's right off the bat so jealous.

Joel: Yeah. We're not just jealous, but, like, again, callous. In a way that he's not been we've talked about how he misreads social cues. Right? And he doesn't always do the right thing. But that's not what we see here, it seems to be purposeful. He twists the knife on Louis when Louis brings Claudia to be turned. He twists the knife on Claudia again and again in this episode. And and to me, that is not actually what happened. It's that this Claudia has not resolved her feelings about Lastat in the way that this Louis clearly has. You know?

Ashley: Right. And we're looking at two, like, I feel like in this episode, like, you kind of touched on is that we're seeing these versions of these characters as Claudia saw them. We're seeing the version of them that isn't her diaries. So everything that we're seeing we saw in this episode that was through her, you know, narration, that's all her perspective. So it's really cool to see the nuance and the changes of the performances. I love that they took the time to do that because it would have been so easy to just not but you'll kind of amp up those qualities, you know, and to do it in such a a a a a a a specific and purposeful way. I think is just is just awesome. And I think it probably should kind of give us a a heads up on what we can expect in future you know, future episodes, future seasons, no matter what direction we go in. These episodes, we should expect to see these nuanced nuance changes in these performances as we go through depending on the perspective we're seeing. Howard Bauchner:

Joel: Yes. Yes. I absolutely agree. Couple of things before we move too far into the episode. I loved loved loved the attack. On the cop in City Park. First

Ashley: of all, it's so great.

Joel: Location.

Joel: It's was was used very famously in with the mister use case of Benjamin Button and that the name of that movie, the the Brad Pitt is a baby thing. Yeah. There's there's a there's a really good scene that's set in in city park there in that same I guess it's kinda like a like a Greek you know, building whatever ruin looking thing in the middle of the park there. Like, it's too big for a gazebo. I don't know what you would call that. Anyway, that location -- Yeah. -- is used in a handful of movies and it rings very New Orleans to me. I you know, obviously, there are clips of that attack. In the trailers that we had seen before. I had not recognized it as City Park, so that was cool. The other thing I liked early there and we've already talked about scene between Louis and and Claudia in the Bayou a little bit.

Ashley: But

Joel: I loved I loved the discussion about their romance. About Lisat and Louie's relationship. What do you like to love a man? And Louie, first of all, doesn't dismiss her question. Right? It doesn't come out of left field for her. She doesn't have any frame of reference for it. And they hadn't talked about it before. Okay. Well, what is it like to love a man? And then he goes to describe it. It's like love. Isn't it? It's just like love? It's

Ashley: the same thing.

Joel: That's simple. Really, when it comes down to it, yeah, it's the same thing. I thought that was really beautiful. And also just, like, genuinely showed the connection that that the two of them have. Now, Lrastat and Claudia get a scene that is also about connection and bonding, but it's a very different kind of scene later in the episode. But I I did love that seen of them in the Bayou. And it makes me think again, it just it makes it ring true. That these characters have the connection that we see for them in the novels and the way you see later in the episode that Claudia still impacts Louis, a great deal. You see why, I guess, in that scene in the Bayou in particular.

Ashley: Yeah. There, you know, there definitely is is taking the time to show how close they are, the fact that she feels comfortable enough to ask him some of these questions. I think is also, you know, indicative of their closeness and and and the importance of that relationship. She sees him with such softness. He's always so, like, smiling and gentle with her kind of and it's just It's it's just really really nice to see her through his eyes. Wait backwards. It's really nice to see him through her eyes.

Joel: Yes. Yeah. No. I knew which meant. Well, but I feel like we get to see her through his eyes as well with that scene between Louie and Daniel later you know, when when Louis finally awakes, because mister point de laque is resting today, which by the way, let's talk about the fact. I thought for a little while that we might not get any of Louis in the modern day in this episode, which I thought was gonna be, you know, pretty, pretty daring of them. They don't do that. We get a couple of scenes at the end with Louis and Daniel speaking directly. But before that, we get a lot. We get a big dose of Rashid Yes. What what do you think is going on? What do you think is going on with Ashley? I I mean, I mean, with Rashid Ashley?

Ashley: I, you know, I mean, we we we're kind of talking offline about it, and I think, obviously, he really stays out of the sun, doesn't he? You know? He's really careful about not getting into the sun.

Joel: I had not considered it at all in previous episodes, but I really want to go back now and

Ashley: why does she and see if that holds up?

Joel: Yes. Does he never go into the sun? The other thing I noticed in this episode, he's I mean and, again, I need to go back and check. I think he was wearing gloves every single time he appeared. Has he worn gloves in every episode so far? If

Ashley: so No. We're gonna have to we're gonna have to go and give this the six cents treatment. Because

Joel: I I will say this Right. Right. We're not going to we're not going to talk about the specifics until our Easter egg section at the end in case you haven't read any of the books and you don't wanna be spoiled. But there is a link in the show notes to a a person on Twitter at a slash savage garden, a library of confusion is their handle. Anyway, they found a Rashid character in the alphabetary, which is like the encyclopedia of of vampires that Anne's assistant Beckett wrote several years ago. I have a copy of that book. Anyway, the link to that is gonna be in the show notes if you want to go and check it out, and we're gonna talk about it a little bit in the Easter egg section of this episode. But just from what we know in this episode, I think very much we are meant to be speculating about him. We're meant to be wondering what his deal is. Daniel even types into his computer after he and Rashid have the interaction. What's his in game? Meaning, what is Rashid's in game? It was under, like, the rashid section. So interesting interesting stuff going on with him. I also wanna call out the fact that Daniel specifically references hey, when he talks about Louie, he says mister point de lack, but he also says he serves a God. This episode, Rashid also referred to electronic mail inbox or something like that,

Joel: you

Joel: know, very antiquated language. The combination

Joel: of

Joel: that and the fact that he didn't step out onto the balcony, very much has us questioning, is he a vampire? And if so, exactly what part does he play? Who who is it that he's serving? All of those Who does he belong? For for everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. To whom does he belong? That is the question there. But I do love the return of Louis, though, and the interaction that they have. The very first thing is he references her writing. Her writing is quite good. Guess what? Because it came from the lady herself most of it. A ton of Claudia's narration in this is directly from the Claudia diary sections of Queen of the damned that Anne wrote herself. So that was snuck into the episode, I think.

Ashley: I have to say Claudia's diaries. Once I knew that those existed in this world, I was so, like, thirsty to get to read them. You know what I mean? Like, that's some serious content that I wanted to know what how this happened from her perspective so much I was like really dying for it because I love that character so much in interview when I read it the first time in particular. And the fact that all of her diaries were laid out there, and and and he could just pick each one up and read sections of it. It was so crazy to me. I was like, I wanna sit in that room and read all those books, please.

Joel: Well, I love that Rashid Sajes' we suggest you start on the left and then leaves the room and Daniel immediately goes all the way to the right. Right. And opens the diary. Which by the way, my eyes were not good enough. But I got Kelly to check, double check on my iPad, and she says the the date for that last diary when they open it. And the words at the top were so we've arrived in Paris or at last we've arrived in Paris, something like that. It's nineteen forty five. Which confirms for us, Ashley, we're getting World War two vampires in season two. Yes. Well, there's that section

Ashley: where she reads where he reads about the soldiers, their blood being really, what was it, sour or bitter or something?

Joel: Yeah. The POW. She talks about the POW camp. So again, like, we oh, I mean, I who knows how they're gonna play this out? But they could literally have Louie and Claudia somehow, like, caught up in the wave of the American soldiers as they're liberating the concentration camps and marching through you know, Europe after Hitler's defeat effectively. Anyway, there's a lot of really interesting ways they could go with that. And and we get a confirmation there on on sort of like When does this

Ashley: relationship change? Online. Change. Yeah.

Joel: When does this relationship change? And when when did they go to Europe? And

Ashley: how much yeah. How much time has passed? How much I figure I mean, I think we always figured we'd see the same roughly the same passage of time. With the whole thing. But it does we're definitely on a sped up timeline with the

Joel: Yeah. A little bit. Oh, so and we get another reference to that, by the way. Daniel when Louie comes back in, he says, how far did you make it? And Daniel says, nineteen twenty three ish Claudia's date with Charlie. And, you know, Louis, like, oh, yes. And

Ashley: That was a rough night. So what that means is, boy, wasn't it though?

Joel: And obviously, like, a turning point for their relationship too. But if you do the math there, so Louis was turned in nineteen ten and there were about six or seven years between him being turned and then buying the or or excuse me. The end of that sequence of him running the fancy brothel and everything and the fires, that's about seven years in. So then Claudia, at the point of her date with Charlie, has been with them for six years, So she would be twenty years old in her mind at least at that point.

Ashley: Yeah. Bless her heart. Which

Joel: also means that by the time they get to Europe in nineteen forty five, that truffle would have been together for another what is that? Twelve years at that point.

Joel: Mhmm. So

Ashley: so effectively, Charlie marks the halfway point for their relation ship. That that family there in New Orleans, it seems like. And

Ashley: we're roughly halfway through our Susan. So I think that might be about where we get through. Yeah. Yeah.

Joel: Yeah. Exactly. So what did you think about Charlie and and the way that that relationship plays out? Very different. Obviously, that character doesn't exist in the novels. And the this relationship doesn't really exist. As as Claudia in the books is, I think, four or five supposed to be in the movie show, Therade is twelve.

Ashley: Yeah. I was heartbroken for her. Like, I was so heartbroken for her. Because this is like the fur when she even says it, this is like the only boy I'll ever I'll ever get to love like this, you know. And And I was just really heartbroken for her. She, you know, something she had of her own. And and I mean, of course, she's the one that that that messes it up. But Oh, it was just heartbreaking. She kills them on accident while they're, you know, having romantic time in the back of the the carriage and then lest that make us her burn him and watch. It was the worst. Like, I think we all had bad dates in high school and had to deal with parents that were kinda rough. But shit, I don't think anyone's dad made them watch their watch them they don't burn their boyfriend and watch. Well, you know when it reminded me of slightly? It reminded me of,

Joel: like, the dad that catches you smoking, and so he makes you smoke the whole pack.

Ashley: Yeah.

Joel: You know?

Ashley: Yeah. Only to this theory, the moment we're in. Right. Right. Right.

Joel: But well, but when he's holding her there, again, that especially was the moment that to me was like, oh, this is so not like the I mean, it's not Lastat has done some terrible things in the books. Right? So if you go through and you and you cherry pick this moment or that moment, Lastat is capable of any atrocity effectively. But but that moment seemed very out of character for me based on what we've seen so far in the TV series. And again, that's a moment where I'm like, I think that's Claudia's version of exactly

Ashley: I do. Maybe he did hold her there. I think he did it because I think he but I think he did it probably to to teach her a lesson about what is gonna happen again and again and again if you continue to try to have relationships with humans. You know, I think he's just trying to in his stupid, bad, parent way, trying to, like, show her, you know, like, look how bad this can be because and you don't wanna do this again. Like, trying to protect her the most fucked up way.

Joel: Many times in the books has Listat had a relationship with the human that that ended

Ashley: up being

Joel: either the human dying or the human becoming turned as a vampire?

Ashley: Or or going absolutely fucking crazy.

Joel: It's going mad. That's right. That's right. Going mad. He he sent a few of them to the nut house ever got

Ashley: He just He leaves destruction in his wake, and he knows he does when it comes to his relationships with humans. And perhaps he's just trying to very early in her vampiric life nip that in the bud for her so she doesn't have to go through that like

Joel: he has had to. So one of the things in this episode, and I sort of thought maybe they would only do it the once in the series and that I wouldn't have to pick pick the net, so to speak, but they did it again either. Lastat takes Lastat takes Claudia out to lover's lane. Let's talk about that scene a little bit. But when he first gets there, and first of all, he lets her drive, which I thought was Love Yes. Teach

Ashley: self drive.

Joel: I thought that was that was really cool. But did they get there? And he again refers to humans as meat. It says the Meat referred to this as a lover's Lane. Right. And I've seen this called out by other fans before too. You know, L'Estat at this point in the in his story is only killing the evildoer in the books. He is not He is occasionally callous with the way that he kills them. As Louis lays out earlier in this episode, he likes to toy with his his food sometimes. But what we find is, in the broader tail anyway, that the people that Lisot is killing are really bad people. They're they're people that he has hunted and knows what they're capable of what they've done, and he's not doing it callously. He's he feels still that he's serving the greater good by ridding these people, you know, of the earth. Hey, here he calls a meat. I wonder is this is this just about the unreliable narrator thing? Is it that this list that as more cruel? Or are they hinting at? Again,

Joel: there's

Joel: a hundred and fifty years for this list that basically doesn't happen in the book, so it happens later. You know? After he's met Louis and everything. They're not as far apart an age as as they are in the TV series. What could have happened to Leshat before he comes to America? I mean, is there a reason that that were sort of, like, hinting towards, do you think that this list that has sort of given up on humanity perhaps? Or maybe he's not there yet. That's what they're getting

Joel: at.

Ashley: Or maybe he they're not he's not there yet. Like, at the place where he's, like, I'm gonna just kill the evildoer. Maybe he's not going You're not going. So

Joel: you say maybe that maybe instead of like a Myriad thing, you know, effectively in the novels, that's Myriad's explanation to him. Like, how do you last this centuries? The ways is you don't eat yourself with guilty conscience because you only eat bad people. You know? And that that'll that makes this whole thing go down easier. In you're saying in the series, maybe that's Lisai gets that from Louis, not beforehand. That would be an

Ashley: issue for me.

Joel: Propose. And also, it might deepen the connection for L'Estat in that, like, hey, you've given me the answer to the centuries. To to stop some of the hollowness, etcetera, etcetera. I feel like I serve a purpose now, and he got that from Louie. I wouldn't hate that, I suppose.

Ashley: Yeah. And another thing I think that if we're you know, it's a nitpick, obviously. But it's a it's a nitpick that also existed in the ninety four film as well. You know, LaSalle wasn't just killing the Eagle Doer in that movie.

Joel: Well, but he says he does though. At some point, let's let's stop. Tom Cruise's, let's stop makes reference to Now I can't remember the line. I saw somebody talk I saw somebody talk about this this week, though, that it was it sort of thrown a hat toss, but then it wasn't really followed through. In the movie, it's one of those things.

Ashley: Right. It doesn't seem like that's the truth. I feel like that's

Joel: a lot. Not consistent.

Ashley: Yeah. Absolutely.

Joel: Absolutely. Okay. Several times now in this series, there's been a reference to not drinking dead blood. Yes. This is a thing in the novels, especially the first couple. But as the series goes on and kinda loses the thread on that particular It's not such a big deal if you drink dead blood later on. But in the movie version, especially, and I think this is true in interview with the Vampire: The Novel, No. In the novel, the boys are drugged.

Ashley: There are two boys

Joel: offered to L'Estat. Right? In the novel, that's how that's how Claudia gets him to sort of get him loopy. And they're already dead. She says they're sleeping and they're already dead in the movie. That's why he's sort of weakened and she's able to attack him. I have thought that's what they were working towards here with these references. But in this episode, in particular, when Claudia has killed Charlie. She leans back sort of satiated, and she says, and I turn the captions on to make sure, I feel loose. Yeah. I now, they were they were they were necking. I don't think they were actually having sex. I think because Charlie's even telling her Like, you're very forward and and slow down a little bit. Wait for me. I don't think they were having sex. But is what what does she mean there? Does she just mean that she felt Is she drunk there? Because she's been drinking his blood after he died?

Ashley: I don't I don't think so. I think it's more of just like, she didn't realize she was drinking his blood. I I honestly think that was like that she was so caught up in the moment and caught up in her passion. And it's that thing we've discussed before that, like, passion for these vampires. A lot of that has to do with the blood and not necessarily the naughty parts, you know. And so in this moment, she gets caught up in in her and her passion, her excitement, and she drains them and has no idea that that's what she's done until she sees him. But you could totally be right that she's got she went a little too far because he says, you didn't have kill him.

Joel: Well, it just occurred to me that Okay. So the episode as the episode ends, she's had to burn Charlie and we get the final scene there with Louie and Daniel, and then it goes back to Claudia's words as Daniel begins to read again. And Claudia's having a manic episode in her coffin effectively after this moment as Louis and L'Estat are fighting over her coffin. It sounds like we're just outside the room. And I don't know what occurred to me as like one of those scenes in movies where you see a character take drugs and then have a traumatic experience. You know, I wondered if -- Oh,

Ashley: yeah.

Joel: -- if we weren't sort of meant to think

Ashley: one of the reasons why this all went so far and why she maybe has a turn after this episode and things perhaps well, I mean, she says it even

Joel: in the text. She says, we got a phone call and the easy times ended or the happy times ended or

Ashley: whatever. Right.

Ashley: Maybe that is because literally, like, she's out

Joel: of her gourd. She's been sort of drugged or duped or something by or doped or something by this dead blood. Anyway, I wondered if that was any if that was what they were hinting towards They didn't say it expressly. It's not referenced. It might not come up again. And there's been a few things about, you know, vampiric powers

Ashley: and vampiric lore that they played a little lap fast and loose with so far in the series. So we'll see we'll see how it turns out. But that was I just had that thought. I wonder if she wasn't effectively drunk or or drugged for the entire, you know, last scene of the episode basically.

Ashley: Yeah. I mean, I could I could totally see that. But to me, it just felt like It felt like that. I am so stuck. I am I I am, like, just a real, like, manic lost frightened, horrified, accepting, denying, like, just I it felt like a real real, like, early twenties meltdown. But also with the with the added hell of being stuck in a fourteen year old's body with your same fourteen year old hormones while you're mentally and emotionally a twenty year old That is some fucking shit. Like, that's enough -- Yes. -- that's enough to make me wanna get into a coffin and throw a fit, frankly. You know, like, the idea of having to relive all that shit would be a nightmare. Oh, one of the things that you're living her own bedroom. I know that that's totally off topic right now. But I was like, get that girl her own bedroom, so she doesn't have to listen to her dad's screw in the next coffin. Do do you know how

Joel: bad I felt in that moment watching Claudia's face in that coffin for every time that I've, like, I think we've gone camping and I've screwed in a tent? When my kids are in the next tent, for instance. I'm like, have I scarred my children? Like, my house isn't that big? Are

Ashley: they are they writing in their journals and bed?

Joel: Exactly. Exactly. I did have that moment. I've never had to look at any of their faces, obviously, while it's happening. So that was that was a moment for me as a parent. But yes. No. I love that moment when she gets her own room. The the moment at the end of the episode and I didn't think about this the first time that I watched it, but on rewatch, the moment when she self harmed, she puts her arm into the sunlight, which by the way, I was not a big fan of the idea of these sun lights. The, you know, the keyhole what are what are those called skylights? I was not a big fan of the skylights when the series started. They've played so well though in the series, and I really actually like how they work. I'm I'm hopeful that that kinda continues honestly. But that moment when she puts her arm into the sunlight, it occurred to me that it was very similar in tone and feel and the way that it was played even. To the moment in the ninety four movie when Claudia cuts her hair off. She has this realization that she's never gonna have a woman's body. That's the moment in the movie. She sees a beautiful woman and she says, when will I have breasts like those? And and Tom says, never my dear. You're you're always gonna be this. And she just freaked up fuck out. And so she runs into her bedroom. She's she's yelling and screaming. She runs into her bedroom. She cuts off all her hair, and then immediately re regrows because that's the way I did in the movies. That's not the way that it works in the books, but then fine. That was the way they wanted to play it. Here, you get that same moment. That's a moment of self harm. I mean, that's everyone sees that in the

Joel: movies. Somebody chops off all their hair. It's effectively a

Joel: cry for help and often right before they try to commit suicide or something. This is that for Claudia. She's having

Ashley: that moment

Joel: where I'm not in control of anything. This I can't change this body. I'm locked in it like a prison. I'm locked with these two idiots who I love and hate and equal degrees. And, well, I can control this. Can I I'll burn the shit out of my arm and what will they say about it? They're gonna hate it, you know. Yeah. It's like getting attention

Joel: to,

Joel: except worse

Ashley: Well, it's just very, you know, and and it's I think self harm is something that we've we've really started talking about in the in the past, you know, ten, fifteen years a lot more. You know, when when you need you have that needs or to harm yourself so that you feel in control of something or that you can feel something if you've dissociated really hard. You know, it's just I I think that I I'm really glad that I mean, I'm not glad that our our Claudia is having to go through this, but I'm It's nice to see, you know, things like that being portrayed in a pretty honest way even in this very kind of fictitious world that we're dealing with here?

Joel: Yes. It's a a perfect example again on how the writers are taking the opportunity of, you know, vampirism and and these supernatural themes. To discuss real world issues and real world concerns and, like, which is the whole point of of the horror genre. Right? And and you know, the fantasy genre. It's about being able to explore our own problems and issues and concerns and and thoughts and queries at a remove, so to speak. You know, well, it's not

Joel: about

Joel: the ring to mount doom.

Ashley: Absolutely. And you can you can kind of confront your own fears and see them, you know, see them see them resolved in a way, good, bad, or ugly, and in in genre films and genre shows and things like that. I think that's why we're so drawn to them. I think that's one of the reasons why true crime has become such a big thing. You know, it's like you can you can kind of face your fears to a certain degree.

Joel: I wonder if next episode is also gonna be from Claudia's diaries or if it's largely going to be a return to Louis as narrator and

Ashley: kind of filling in the gaps. Have you

Joel: style that we've yeah. Oh,

Ashley: we haven't talked about Louis Lamar.

Joel: Oh, no. Yes. Very good point. That was the that was the impetus for the end of the of the happy nights. I forgot. Yes. Alright. So so Raydon Chung has performed her last as Momo Dulak

Ashley: Alright. Thanks a lot. Passes

Joel: away. Indeed. Indeed. Excellent performance, and glad to have had her on the show. So that causes Louis and his his family, his young family, to attend the funeral services or, excuse me, the way because the funeral is gonna be during the day, and Louis can't make it as he tells TV

Ashley: as planned and

Joel: Grace. Yeah. He can't make it. I thought the screen was really good. I also loved the fact that Louis did not, like, enter and immediately say hello to Grace at all. It was It was Claudia that got the introduction first and there's this weird spooky girl standing over the body that that Grace and Levy approach and wonder

Joel: where this little

Joel: girl came from.

Ashley: Who who your mommy and daddy? Oh, I just loved at the end of the scene where when Louie Louie pop when the stop pops up with her, it is, like, Claudia has expressed a desire to go home and she says, this spell is awful. I'm just thinking about dead bodies in New Orleans in the damn summertime with no air conditioning. Jesus Christ.

Joel: Right. Oh my goodness. Yeah. You know it was right I mean, that's the reason

Ashley: Especially if you're a vampire. My god.

Joel: Oh, yeah. Yeah. For sure. Especially, I when I when you can't drink from the dead. Right? So they probably literally like discuss them, you would imagine.

Ashley: Right. I was it's hard to see this very kind of angry harsh side of Louie the way he behaves with with grace now. He brings up you remember what I did to that door what they want is for him to sign over his his side of the house to them or his his half of their mother's estate. And it's so strange to me that he doesn't that he's like, he won't just do it. Give us so much money. You don't need that. Why would you not just do that for them? It's kind of a hard side of him. And I get that he's angry. I get that there's all that. Well,

Joel: not just that, but you also have to you you have to remember the time period and the fact that he he's executor of his father's estate. Right? So his mother would have had nothing. Grace has nothing. Louis is in control of all of the point to lack money, all of the properties, etcetera, etcetera. So, moma dies, Grace and Levy might be out on the street, I think is the worry that that is there. Like, if Louis wanted to say, this is my property, and you've made it clear that I'm not welcome here. So guess what? You are not welcome there actually because So on a day, I think that was a little bit of yeah. I think that was a little bit of concern that Louis was gonna edge them out completely, whereas and Grace, I think makes a good argument. Louis has clearly not had anything to do with the family since the moment where he blew the doors down. Right? He came he came home to pay his respects to his mother. Maybe he came home a little bit to rub it in his sister's face that he's still doing fine. And in fact, as this daughter, that he knew would freak her the f out.

Ashley: Oh, yeah.

Joel: I I think there was a little bit of, like well, as someone who occasionally has a contentious relationship with his siblings, I can understand you want to throw an elbow once in a while. And I think that's what that was. However, as he walks away, what does he say? I'll I'll sign the papers. I'll

Joel: I'll

Joel: have him write the papers up. Like, he's gonna give her her due. And I think largely he'll divest himself of the point delac state. But I think part of the reason he held onto it all this time is because he refused to remove himself from his human life. Yeah. Now, if we wanna get a little glimpse into next week, I think the trailer for next week implies the answer to our previous question What is the plantation moment that ends all of this? Why how is Louie really driven from public life? I I think Claudia might be the reason why they're both driven from public life in New Orleans. As we as we sort of get a glimpse of in the trailer there, And I think this is that moment where Louis honestly even pre ed all of the things turning south with with Charlie and and Claudia's you know, sort of meltdown. I think Louis feels it right here. That's the reason he's resigned as he walks away. He does make a threat effectively to grace. Measure yourself. Don't look, I am still a vampire. Don't talk to me like that. Yeah.

Ashley: But

Joel: also, I'm your brother. I love you. I'm gonna give you the house. Bye. You know? And I honestly would be surprised if we see grace again. I don't think that I think that was the end of it.

Ashley: I would too. I'd be very, very surprised. Yeah. I don't know. I haven't looked at IMGB to see how many episodes she's credited in, but I would guess the same. Me

Joel: either. Yeah.

Ashley: I think I

Joel: mean,

Joel: I can't I I don't think that there's more to mine there from that relationship.

Ashley: Yeah. I think he's effectively with this saying he's gonna sign the papers, he's letting go of that side of himself. He's committed to his new family now, his his partner, his daughter, and now he's ready to let go of the old.

Joel: Yes. Yes. Precisely. Alright. Ashley, let's let's move with that we've already started talking about the trailer. Let's move into the easter egg section. If you don't wanna know any speculation from us about based on our knowledge of the books, what might be coming or some that have come up in previous episodes or this episode that are going to be hinted about, then now is your time to bounce out. Enjoy episode five, and we'll see you again next week. For

Ashley: the people who are

Joel: interested in a little in a little speculation, let's go into it. First and foremost, I saw this on Twitter earlier in the week, and I didn't retain the link. I apologize. Someone did the math on the comment from L'Estat to Louis. In episode three, L'A dot says we'll be together ten thousand nights. A hundred thousand. Someone did the math. Ten thousand nights is twenty seven years. Nineteen eleven to nineteen thirty eight. What's gonna happen in nineteen thirty eight, Louis? What's gonna happen in nineteen thirty eight, Listat, ten thousand nights might be profane. That's all I'm saying.

Ashley: If you

Joel: -- That's awesome. -- particularly particularly if you do the math on Claudia's diaries. Right? If they're in Paris by nineteen forty five, especially if we're gonna actually get some of the travels into Eastern Europe and other places, which I hope we do in season two. Then, yeah, thirty eight might be when this all goes south for real. So that will be that will be very, very interesting. We already mentioned the nineteen forty five reference from the diaries, so so confirmation on the POW's reference

Joel: is -- Yeah. -- confirmation

Joel: on World War two Van hires. Oh, here's another reference from our Facebook group. Laura Phillips and the Facebook group said, did anyone see that AMC has made a personal website and a LinkedIn page for Daniel Malloy. I might be too much into this. I'd send this to she says I might be might be reading too much into this, but I noticed that his work history starts in nineteen eighty one. While his first interview with Louis was in nineteen seventy three, I'm wondering if those missing years might mean that we're going to get part of his story from the books that we assumed had been cut because they had aged up the character. What if he spent that decade? Those lost eight years as Ormond's Placing.

Ashley: Oh, my goodness. I I hope so. I number one, I always love when when any production goes this far to, like, create a fake website for you to go to or or, you know, a phone number that you call that works. I love that shit so much. I can't help it. I just think it's so much fun and I'm so glad that they've done it for Daniel. I think it's hilarious. But also, I love that the -- Yeah. -- the word clues that gives us. Obviously, when you're when you know more or when you have, you know, more knowledge, obviously, there's extra tricks and treats in there for you, but I think that it's fun for absolutely anybody to get to to see those things.

Joel: So there was there was one other thing that I think is relevant here that kinda leaked and went out this week. There is a YouTube clip from the actor who will be playing, and we referenced this earlier, there is a young Daniel coming this season, some sort of flashback. The actor who's playing young Daniel, which by the way, looks like Eric McGising has cloned. It is insane. How

Ashley: much does it look like?

Joel: But there's a clip from his audition tape that he sent for this role as young Daniel. The audio is really bad and the video is pretty grainy quality. And if you can make out the audio of his dialogue and the dialogue from the scene partner that's that's that's testing him there in the audition or whatever, I think it's very spoiler y, so I didn't want to link to it directly. But if you're interested, if you just go to Twitter and Google Young Daniel Malloy or if you go to YouTube and search for this actor's name, I believe it'll probably come up then. But it makes me think that we are going to get this story. And I do think there is a further connection in Daniel's past that's going to be played out eventually the other thing that led me even more to to believe this way. I happen to set my aunt up this weekend with AMC Plus so that she could

Ashley: I love that she does this for her.

Joel: It turns out, by the way, actually, we had talked previously. I was gonna get my hand to explain to us what had been cut for the cable versions. She's not gonna be helpful to us because she hasn't seen it yet on cable. For some reason, her DVR didn't record it. So she hasn't seen anything yet until last night. I I set her up, and so she was gonna watch the first episode

Ashley: of the first episode. Good stuff.

Joel: She

Ashley: deserves that good stuff. Well, that's what I told her. Uncut shit. That's what I told her exactly.

Joel: Yes. That's right. The the real uncut vampire shit. So I I set it up for her and I said, hey, I wanna if you got a minute, let's just watch this for a second and I showed her just the intro until Louis sort of giggles because he's been asked, how long have you been dead? And, you know, he Cuckles, and it flashes to nineteen ten Louisiana or New Orleans. And that's where we stopped. And so she just just saw that intro. But it occurred to me for the first time, and now this will that was the third time or the fourth time that I've seen the very beginning of that first episode. But as Louis, we're getting his letter sort of written read aloud by his hymn as we see Daniel make his way to to Dubai. Louis Deere says I followed your achievements with, you know, much interest, both those professional and personally redemptive. And I think that just rolled over me completely the first time, maybe I thought it was a reference perhaps to his drug use. Right. I wonder if that is not a reference to the relationship with Armand kind of ruining his life. And listen, here's the thing that isn't it's not my story to tell, so we're not gonna talk about specifics. But Ashley, you and I know, at least one person in common, who led a very open gay lifestyle as a young man, had an incredibly intense and very bad breakup and lived the rest of their life as a closeted man in a smaller community living sort of a very different lifestyle. I I knew a different person that had that exact same story happened to them that that wasn't from my hometown, that a person that I grew up working with in the the theater world. Anyway, I'm saying it's not unheard of for a person to have a life altering relationship and for them to spend the next several decades trying to find a resolution for that by sort of denying who they are. Yeah. And I wonder if that's not if he's like, well, the only, you know and and what Louis was referring there was the maybe the birth of his children, the fact that Daniel had children showing he's moved on. He's got relationships. He's formed. He's trying to have a life. You know? Anyway, I just wonder all of that Soup was in my head this week. I'd seen young Daniel. There's several references in this episode to sort of make me think there's more to this and then having seen that watching it with my hand. Yeah. I think we're gonna get young Daniel's story. Maybe even a lot of it, maybe maybe we're going to get Armand episodes next season while we're meeting our mind in the I don't know how that would work exactly. Anyway, I think think there's more to it and I think we're gonna get that story. So the people who, including me, who worried if Daniel was being white was straight washed, I I don't think he is.

Ashley: I hope so because I love I love this character. Yeah. Yeah. And that would give a that definitely would kind of explain the direction that they've gone in with the character, you know. And that does make that does make sense. Especially considering how fucked up his relationship with Armando was. I mean,

Joel: I You wanna talk about an abusive relationship. You

Ashley: wanna

Joel: talk

Joel: about

Joel: a misbalanced, you know, fundamentally toxic relationship

Ashley: in your environment.

Joel: And I know a lot of people ship them sort of, but, like, That's f ed up, man, that is messed up in a big way.

Ashley: Yeah. I think their relationship grows and changes obviously over time just like all of our all of our characters do because they're, you know, alive for for, you know, centuries. But I think that, yeah, it's just that that was really hard pill for me to swallow. With our mind. I've I loved our mind in the first, you know, the first couple of books. And then that happened, and I was like, oh, I don't like this. All. Like, I was really put off by it. That was one of the more more despicable things I think Arman has done to any anyone.

Joel: And that list is long, honey.

Ashley: That list is real long. I love someone in our group was like, oh, I thought this might be the year I could read our mind. When not hate his guts and it's not. I feel the same way sometimes, but I love to hate him and I hate to love him.

Joel: Indeed. Indeed. Alright. Let's get to our let's get to our Rashid discussion. We mentioned this a little bit in the episode proper, but now that we're in Easter eggs, So the alphabettery reference, if you go and look up Rashid and the alphabettery from Beckett, so the vampire Udoxia was hundreds of years old before she meets the young Rashid shortly after the founding of Constantinople. So Rashid is a thousand years old plus a very, very old vampire in the books. Udoxia turns Rashid into a vampire and then she welcomes him into her home full of Empire slaves. The two of them have a fairly long life. There's another fledgling man Asper. The three of them are kind of the trio. They they have a whole story together. All of these vampires appear in the novel blood and gold, which is Myriad's story. From his own perspective, so to speak. But that that trio, Udoxia, Aspart and Rashid, they eventually discover that Marius has the the mother and father Akasha and Heiko. And Udoxia had drank from Akasha previously. She approaches Marius to let her do so again. He says no. And they're like, well, fuck this dude. We'll just take them except Marianas is a real badass from the novels. I don't know if you're aware of this. And so he ends up killing Rashid and he burns them completely to ashes with the fire gift in the books. So that's the only place where Rashid appears in the novels. I think

Ashley: that Do you

Joel: remember

Ashley: that now? Now that you're reading that? I totally remember that now.

Joel: Right. Well, it is one of those things that's I mean, a lot of shit happens in Marius's story. It's a it's a very long story. Right? So there's and to me, there are more interesting characters. Well,

Ashley: and you get his story in, like, three different books too.

Joel: You know? Like, we we'll Right. Yeah. You get you get him telling it to L'Estat, and then you get him telling it to our mind, and then you get him telling it. To, you know, theoretically to David. But, anyway, I wonder if first of all, I think it absolutely is true. That Receipts of Empire in the in the series. I think it is very likely that he's tied to Akasha and Inkel probably tied to Myriad as well. Whether that means this is our Mon's place or whether this is Myriad's place, is Dubai, is this tower in Dubai where they're keeping Akasha and Ankle still? Is this post queen of the dam? Does it pre queen of the dam? I don't know. But

Ashley: I think that those things

Joel: are definitely connected. I think those things are definitely connected. I I think this is brilliant, though, on the part of the the show runners in that Here's an example of a very minor character from the books. Only appears in one book, one of the lesser known ones, and yet they can give him a broader story that is still, you know, connected to his character in the novels or maybe even very true to his character in the novels, if not true to his actual story line in the novels. And yet also keep us as viewers largely in the dark unless we go and do, you know, some some super sleazing.

Ashley: Right. Or even if it's just a even if it's just a a like, we're we're using this name to let you know that, you know, we're in the know We know these characters. We know these stories. We've done our research. So here's a little nugget. Even if it's never really you know, fully fleshed out. Then here's this little delicious nugget for you to enjoy. But I I agree there's it seems unlikely that they just did it on a happy accident?

Joel: Yes. Yeah. Exactly. I don't I don't think this is just a coincidence. They clearly, at least, picked the name because of the minor character in the in the novels, which makes me think probably his portrayal here is gonna have something to do with with those who must be kept. Which is very exciting to me because, again, that is that whole, like, the history of the vampires, you know, and especially the way that we get that story of the first brood from

Ashley: Macquarie and

Joel: Cayman and and those old ones, I I am so hopeful that we get all of that in this TV series. And the combination of Claudia's voice in this episode and these hints with Rashid's character and everything that they're doing there makes me think that's where we're headed folks. We're gonna get some old ass vampires and we're gonna get them pretty soon, I think.

Ashley: I'm so excited. I really do. I really do want us to get to see that story. And I really I think a lot of us, hey, Joel, you already came around. I'm on board now. A lot of us have have come around to the idea of the the rock star version of Listat. So I just say, let's give it to us. Let's do this. Let's do this.

Joel: I I'm absolutely on board now. I've heard Samsung. I've seen these two together. I've I've seen the way that music plays into the series. I think it's gonna be beautiful, especially especially if they've given us the story of Nicholas by that point. You know, this this beautiful passionate, charismatic violinist and the way that that permanently scars LISTAT Yep.

Joel: Yep. I want it. I want I want

Ashley: Well, we may get those stories at the same time. We may get that kind of those stories might run-in parallel. So there's so many they're they they can play with time in their storytelling however they want. I mean, they've set up that up already, you know, flashbacks, flash forward, flash hopefully, we don't go the lost way and have flash sideways, but I'll be along for the ride no matter what. Yeah. We don't need alternate dimensions in this

Joel: in this universe. Thank you very

Ashley: much. I don't think we have enough to be going on with.

Joel: One consistent timeline. Quite so. Quite so. Quickly, Ashley, before we sign off today, I just wanna say thank you to all of you who have found the show and shared the show. I've heard from a lot of people oh, such and such gave it to me or this person mentioned that that they've been listening to an Android's podcast, etcetera, etcetera. There are only a handful of of shows now that are actually still in production about this show in this universe and these these stories. We are very thankful to be among them. We're also very proud to say, I I've I've checked this to be sure. We're the only show that is coming out on Sundays. That is about the episode that has dropped that Sunday on AMC Plus. So if you're a streamer, we're the only place that you can go right away to get back on what's going on. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

Ashley: We are your recap show y'all.

Joel: That's right. Exactly where your recap show. And we're gonna do the same thing with the May for which series premiers and whatever it's spin offs or just second seasons, we'll do the same

Joel: as this universe moves forward. I I do wanna say, again, thank you. This show has been a success too. We are I I mentioned I shared this with

Joel: you, Ashley, yesterday or the day before. We are consistently in the top one hundred in after shows, not only in the US, but in the UK, in Australia, in Italy, in France, in

Ashley: Canada. Maybe

Joel: Yes. So, basically, everywhere where you can get AMC reliably, I think, those people are are into it there. So -- Right. -- thank you. -- everybody who's listening. It's so much fun sharing this with you. It's so much fun hearing your feedback and join the Facebook group if you wanna talk to us more or

Joel: at least tweet us, I know some people are not on Facebook for you know, good healthy reasons. If you don't mind, absolutely.

Joel: So yeah. Tweet us out on articulate, Kevin. But tell us what you're thinking about show, tell us about your fan theories, and we'll be happy to share those or or any news that crops up. You've already been a big help to our discussions moving forward. Oh

Ashley: my gosh. Yeah. Absolutely.

Joel: Actually, any final thoughts on this episode?

Ashley: No. Just it was exciting to kind of to to get a taste of of what seeing the show and the upcoming shows through different eyes and different voices is gonna be like. Really, really pumped about that. I've got to be really honest. Like, I I am just I'm excited to see That's one of my favorite things about the books. It's just all the different seeing the stories from all the different perspectives. I like I like that kind of, you know, storytelling trope. So just I'm just as always really excited to be along for this ride. I'm excited to see what comes next.

Joel: Me too. Me too. What comes next? Is episode five where we get

Ashley: Oh, we're happy, Donahue,

Joel: guys. Maybe maybe a little murder mystery that's of what the trailer was giving me vibes of a little murder mystery almost even though we know who committed the murders. Right. So I'm I'm excited to see how the how the cop storyline plays out next week as it looks like Claudia's gonna get the family in a little bit of trouble.

Ashley: Especially since we're not supposed to eat carbs,

Joel: Right. Right. You can't just eat all the cops. Apparently, that's what Daddy say. Alright. Folks, we'll be back next week to talk about episode five of interview with the vampire from and Rice, and AMC's Immortal Universe. Until then, we've been your hosts. Ashley Wright Eiler. I'm Joel Sharpton, and we are the articulate covenant.

Joel: Thanks for listening to the Articulate Cove. You can join our community on Facebook by following the links in the show notes or searching for articulate Kevin on Facebook. You can subscribe to the show in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts or at articulate coveben dot com and share us with your AmRice loving friends.