Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles (was) Coming to Hulu! Plus Discussions of Handmaid's Tale and Castle Rock adaptations on Hulu - AC006

Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles (was) Coming to Hulu!

Joel: The Articulate Coveen is the original unofficial podcast and fan community for A Rice's interview with the Vampire and A Rice's Immortal Universe from AMC and AMC Plus. Welcome to the Articulate Cove in the unofficial podcast and fan community for Anne Rice in the Vampire Chronicles as well as the Vampire List at including the upcoming TV show I am Joel Sharpton, and I'm joined as always by my co host.

Ashley: Ashley Wright Eiler.

Joel: Ashley, so glad to talk to you again. A little faster turnaround this time than we have been having. We're gonna try to speed things up as we go along here. But it's exciting because things are finally happening. You know, you and I've been like, looking at this now, almost it occurs to me almost two years now. Not quite. We're we're still a a couple months away from two years. But interestingly, and I'm gonna try to put these links in the show notes as well, but it was Almost two years ago now, the Hollywood reporter reported that Anne Rice's vampire Chronicles had been returned to her for the rights. The author says she's regained the theatrical rights and that the television that television is where the vampires belong. This was announced in let's see. That would make it November twenty six of twenty sixteen. Hollywood reporter reported on this and had some quotes directly from Anne and from Christopher Universal and Imagine Entertainment had the film rights to the book series but that had fallen away because they hadn't been able to come up with anything. And so Anne announced that she and her son were gonna be pushing ahead and that they were gonna be working together as executive producers on a series. So that was our first bit of news. Then it was in April. So we go from November until April with basically nothing. And then then suddenly in April, it was announced again, I'm referring to the Hollywood reporter here. It would took about five months or so. She announced that an eleven book series, and it's interesting, and we'll talk about the specific books again here in a moment that are that are mentioned, but the eleven books from the series were optioned by Paramount Television and anonymous content, and they indeed brought on both Anne Anne Christopher as executive producers for the series. And it was right around that same time that we had Another executive producer announced in the person of Brian Fuller since that time, Brian Fuller has fallen away. You and I have never we talked about the fact that we were excited to see him brought in some of the past series that he's worked on Hannibal and pushing Daisy's and He's he's got a great pedigree. We haven't really discussed the fact that he's no longer in this series, but he's got a habit of of signing on to big named big, you know, high profile series and then sort of fading out somewhere in the process. Now whether that's because he's perhaps a difficult a tour to work with or if they just butted heads creatively or maybe he gets bored when when things stall and don't get moving right away. I'm not sure what the the deal is, but he does seem to have a habit of that. Don't you think?

Ashley: Yes. Absolutely. And I do think it I mean, I I like to think it is because things stall out and and you have I mean, I think it's common. It happens a lot, I think, with when things are in early, early preproduction. You know, I don't think it's I don't think it's anything to be alarmed about or anything to be like to like have an overreaction too. But I definitely think it probably has a lot to do with projects kinda stalling out and having to wait and then signing on to other projects. So you know you have to remove yourself from it. You know, you you if something's moving more quickly, there's more urgency to be a part of that newer project that's moving a lot more quickly than something that's taking a little bit more time to coalesce. This is a huge thing too. Like, you're talking I mean, eleven eleven novels being involved in it. I mean, this is potentially a a huge project. So I I can totally see why the timing of it is uninspiring.

Joel: I I was not I was not particularly upset when it came out that Brian Fuller had fallen away. I I do think he has a history of combative relationships with networks. Which I when they first announced him because I do want this series to live and I want it to have a long life and I I think particularly to the beginning of The Walking Dead, you know, there was a big kerfuffle and The executive producer of that series at the time Frank Deribat and he was the show runner, basically got run off by AMC. And as somebody who really loved that source material, I was terrified at what might happen in relation to that. And in in fact, it turned out that the series sort of wandered for a season or two before it found its feet again. I just don't want that to happen to this. I love these vampires and I love these stories more than basically any other fiction and it it means a great deal to me that they get it right. So the fact that Brian Cayman went was no big deal to me. The fact that we get this new announcement, though. And this is really the reason for this episode. Anewise's vampire Chronicles lands at Hulu. And this was reported fairly recently. The middle of July, as a matter of fact, by a Hollywood reporter. Again, they broke the story. Almost two years after being first put into development, Anorizes, vampire Chronicles TV series, has found a home in a competitive situation with multiple outlets pursuing the project Hulu has landed vampire chronicles. By the way, so far in all of the official reporting that is the way that it's been referred to. No the and no mention of List Act specifically just is referred to as Vampire Chronicles. But who knows what the name of the eventual series would be, but that's how they are referring to the project officially. Of course, the streamer, Hulu, is home to Emmy Darling. The Handmaid sale and now they are home to season one of Castle Rock. Those are the two series that we're gonna be discussing a little bit later on in this episode. First off, Ashley, how long have you been using Hulu as a service? I I know you'd use it now because we've talked before on this show about the handmade sale in particular, but How long have you been signed up for Hulu?

Ashley: I think probably like four or five years. Like Really? Yeah. I've been I've been using Hulu for quite a while. Maybe maybe, like, four years. I think five might be an exaggeration. I use I mean, I use Netflix and Hulu and Amazon Prime. So I use all three of those of those streaming services personally. I have no issues with Hulu. Though I will say a couple, like, maybe like a year ago, I was really unhappy with how slowly things loaded in all that jazz, but that's probably more a reflection of my lack of updated technology than anything else. But since I've been streaming through the Xbox One, And such, it's been great. I haven't had any trouble with it. So I'm a big fan of Hulu. Actually, I I really I mean, I have loved the handmade sale. It's fantastic. And I'm excited about all the you know, with these streaming services producing so much original content, like, so much that there's huge amounts if you haven't scrolled through the original content on all these streaming services. It's pretty impressive, and it's becoming quite a competitive option for production companies to kind of maybe work on projects that wouldn't have gotten picked up by network television or, you know, gotta have other options besides HBO and Showtime and such. You know what I mean to produce these large epic kind of things?

Joel: No. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. I was super skeptical of Hulu. I I tried them not even signing up. I just tried, like, the free version right after they launched where you could basically watch, like, last night's television or, like, last week's TV shows. I tried that a few times, and the interface always seemed clunky. It bothered me that they played the same advertising over and over again. And in general, I was like, this is not for me. This is not what I want in my streaming services. I'll wait and I'll binge them like I do on Netflix. And then even when they started with original content, I can't remember what the first thing, but I saw something pretty early on that Hulu did that was original, and it was just very low quality. Compared to at the time, you know, Netflix, everybody thinks about House of Cards. But the first thing that I remember seeing on Netflix that was original content was Lillie Ham and Lilly Hammer was not I don't think originally produced by Netflix. It was one of those, like, foreign television shows that they purchased for the American audience, basically. But it was shown to me as a Netflix original, and it was a show that Kelly and I had fallen in love with. I really enjoyed and and she did too. And so I thought that's high quality television. That's what Netflix can do right out of the gate, whereas Hulu was sort of stumbling and making this, like, low grade I don't know if it felt like the kind of thing that you would see on cable access shows, because I did not not set them on HBO or a or a high quality pay network. So I was very, very biased against them even once they announced the handmaid's tale deal. I'd never read the book. I didn't have any connection to that story. Thought the story was interesting once the premise came out, but I I it wasn't for me. I I figured, and I thought the series probably wouldn't be very good. I felt the same way about Amazon Prime with Man in the High Castle. I still haven't gotten into that series. I have watched an episode or two. I haven't really dived in fully. But it's clear now I was wrong on that one too. I was skeptical of them and and wrongly. So that's a high quality series and they did that one pretty early on as well. Same thing with Is it transparent? Is that the name of their show featuring Jeffrey Tamper that Amazon has? I mean, so they've got clearly some high quality award winning shows and I had not given them their due either. The thing that brought me to Hulu though, Ashley, was TGI Friday. They bought the rights to basically all of the TGI Friday shows. My kids had gotten they've started watching Full House. Kelly was streaming episodes off of YouTube or something. And I hated the way it looked. It ticked me off that they were watching on my big nice high definition television. This, like, crazy, pan and scan version, and it had, like, like, it was ripped off of a video. Obviously, it was terrible. It just drove me insane. And I was, like, I'm going on iTunes. I'm gonna buy the whole series and me like sixty or seventy bucks or something, but I bought the whole series of full house. And by the time the kids worked their way through that or they were almost done with it, Kelly was like, they really wanna watch something else. And so she was talking about starting with home improvement. And I was like, I don't wanna pay another seventy dollars just to get home improvement, and then I'm gonna have to buy hangover, mister Cooper, and step by step, and family matters, and this is gonna get expensive. So just as I was about to start shopping around for home improvement, realistically, Hulu announced that they had this deal. And then, like, two months or a month and a half at that point, they were gonna bring the whole TGI Friday lineup. And so I signed up immediately for Hulu. I think I got, like, you know, a month for free or something like that. And and then we started and the kids do. They watch family matters now. They're working their way through that. They started home improvement and they watched a couple of episodes a step by step. But but they're gonna work their way through the whole TGF Friday lineup out there. I'm gonna teach them right. Right. But so that's how we that's how we came to it. But once it was in the house, then you're like, well, I have this. Let me see what else is here. Right? And and Kelly started using it more than me even during the day, and you're absolutely right about the frustration with technology. Hulu has a very complex app and it seems clear to me that they don't do a whole lot of great work on optimizing it for different platforms. I feel like they have, you know, they're like, we have a round we have a round ball here and we're gonna squeeze through your square shaped peg whether you want us to or not, you know? And it sort of works if you have a powerful enough device. We were using an older Apple TV for a while, and it was failing miserably. With the Hulu app, we used, like, one of the little

Ashley: what

Joel: was it? We used one of the little fire sticks, Amazon fire sticks, like not the box. But just actually the stick itself that plugs straight into your television. And again, it was a tragedy. It would not maintain a connection at all on Hulu, and it kept crashing. But now we have this What is it? The Amazon Fire cube? It's like their four k box, and it works great. The modern Apple TV works very well. And my modern iPad works great to play Hulu. We watch tons of stuff on Hulu all the time now. So by the time this announcement was made, if you had made this been a year ago or even honestly back in April of last year when we got the announcement that they had joined with Paramount. I think I would have been much more skeptical of Hulu or a little bit like depressed that it wasn't Netflix or wasn't HBO, whereas now I am fully on board realistically, particularly in light of not only the handmade style, which I've now caught up on, but Castle Rock. And those two series back to back, two great pieces of literature that are used in very different ways and yet I think fairly universally satisfy their fan bases. Don't you think?

Ashley: Oh, absolutely. Mean, I I am a Stephen King is my jam. I mean, I I grew up on Stephen King probably somewhat inappropriately But I the first thing I actually saw on first, I think original content that I saw on Hulu was eleven twenty two sixty three, which was an adaptation of an unbelievably wonderful Stephen King book if you haven't read it. It's freaking amazing. It's it involves time travel and the Kennedy assassination, and I cannot recommend it highly enough. I was not a hundred percent into that limited series. Frankly, I'm James Franco, isn't it? And he's kinda hit or miss with me. So I do I find him entertaining. He's a little hit or miss for me. But that was the first thing I saw and I loved it. As far as, like, the quality of it, And I thought as an adaptation, it wasn't it wasn't too bad because that's quite I mean, that's a big, big book. So I was really pumped when they announced Castle Rock because you're just mushing up a ton of different aspects of Stephen King fandom into one show, and I think that that's that was so appealing and fun to me. It sounded like such an exciting adventure. And then with Hamid's tale, When they first announced it, I reread it. I hadn't read it since probably high school, junior higher high school. And it resonated so strongly with me as our current, you know, current climate, our current situation in the world and the direction that women's women's rights and things are going in. And it so it resonated really well with me, and then I turned around. I think that night and started trying trying to binge watch it, which I would not recommend. That's really dark. That's dark to watch so many episodes of that in a row. And also, I would never recommend reading it in one evening and then turning around and starting the series. It's just a lot of it's a lot to deal with emotionally, but it's so good. The quality of that show is unbelievable. And I think one of the strongest adaptations for television I've ever scene because the source material, unlike the Stephen King's source material that we were discussing, the source material for Hamid Steel is actually really small. Like, it's a small world. It's a quick read. It's a first person. It's told in first person, you know, narration. And the fact that they've been able to expand that novel, that short novel into this incredible incredibly rich world is is just brilliant to me. I don't I don't I'm not sure I haven't looked up in any research on who's doing who's doing the actual, like, writing on the episodes. But, man, they are that team, whoever's working on that is has got a great job number one and is doing a great job number two.

Joel: So the thing that was interesting to me, I think, for for Hulu's choice in both of those areas, the fact that they went deep into Steven King. You know, starting with with the eleven twenty two sixty three book, for instance. That's not one of the big ones You imagine the rights to that one were wasn't it was not an astronomical deal as compared to the Castle Rock deal, for instance. And yet, that is a fan base that you can build upon and really extend a fairly deep little niche within your streaming service. For for instance, if you go look now, you search for Stephen King and they have a whole section devoted to movies. They've got the original It mini series, you know, with with Tim Curry. They've got that streaming. They've got, I think, they got Kuzhou. They've got a bunch of the older films. And and what a great opportunity for them? Those are very cheap, I imagine, as far as picking up the streaming rights for a while, and yet when you hook a new viewer, you can immediately continue to hold their eyeballs and their attention. And in a world where that's really what you're fighting for is, like, at the end of the month, when when that recurring transaction goes through for Hulu or Netflix, are you mad about it? Are you thankful that you've got another month of great content? And right now,

Ashley: I'm excited every month when the Hulu one goes through. And honestly, sometimes I think maybe this is the month we should turn Netflix off for a little while. Hulu has

Joel: a great option. I saw in the background where you can pause your subscription at any time for just put it on hold for a few months if you want to. Netflix does not have that. You have to turn it off effectively, which makes it feel a little bit more permanent than that.

Ashley: Right. Like a breakup.

Joel: Yeah. It does. And,

Ashley: of course, Amazon hooks you in because everybody tries to do the yearly package. You know, you paid ninety nine or a hundred and twenty or whatever it is now. And and you're like, well, I'm doing it for the shipping, and you just get the series thrown in is the way that it feels to me anyway.

Ashley: That's a hundred

Joel: percent

Ashley: my validation.

Joel: Yeah. So but now with this deal coming, like, honestly, pausing Hulu is not even an option that I think about. Like, I'm excited about my eight bucks or my nine bucks or whatever it is, and I'm sending it to them every month because I know a portion of that is going to prepare for this series and to make sure that they continue producing the great content that I'm enjoying right now like these series that we're talking about handmade sale and Castle Rock especially. So We don't know much now about a launch date. We don't know anything yet about casting. Although now that it's been announced at Hulu, I would expect both a show runner and your, like, primary two or three cast members, I'm guessing, Marius will probably be one of the first ones announced because it's as we've discussed before, likely gonna be a a name, a bigger name. And it's going to be, I would imagine, a less restrictive contract than for L'Estat, for instance.

Ashley: Right. For sure. It'll be probably for Yeah. I would imagine whoever signs up as the start is in it for the long haul. You know what I mean? Like, your your gonna be this is gonna be a multiyear deal. You're not gonna be doing much else you know, because an off season you're probably gonna be wanting to rest. So I I would imagine that whoever whoever signs on as lestat's gonna be I mean, that's gonna be a pretty big contract. And that's exciting. Yeah. No. Absolutely. You I mean, I would think you have to lock them

Joel: down for basically a decade. Yeah. And if you're the actor, you're signing up for I'm gonna do this. And if it's successful, I'm gonna get to make a movie once a year like, after the second season probably, you know -- Right. -- every year I'll get to make one big movie and I'll get a big fat paycheck for that too now because I'm I'll I'll be a name. But but if it's not successful on the other hand, I might disappear because people would just remember me as the you know, the vampire that nobody liked. I'm very hopeful that that's not gonna be the case though. So I I'm excited about I think it's a great move on Ant's part and Christopher's part. I think it's a solid choice for them. I think it's a solid choice for the series. And I'm hopeful that this is gonna mean great content for us. I would love, and I know Ashley would as well, to hear from you on it. We haven't really heard people responding to the Hulu announcement in our Facebook group. A couple of people you know, saying just glad for news period, but I would love to hear feedback on this specifically. If you have anything, you can email us articulate coven at gmail dot com or find us facebook dot com slash group slash articulate Kevin and give us feedback there as well. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna transition now. We're gonna talk a little bit. Sort of like ten thousand foot level about the series Handmaid's Tale and Castle Rock. We won't mention any spoilers on either, and then we'll move into a spoiler section on handmade sale and finish with a spoiler section on Castle Rock since that's the newest. That way, you can sort of drop off the episode as you want folks. You've heard us mention already how much we love the handmade sale and how much we've enjoyed that adaptation. But let's talk just very briefly and generically about the two different modes of adaptation that we're talking about here. And you've already sort of referenced it actually with handmaid's tale they took what is a fairly short book. One one book describing, you know, a world in the broadest of terms, basically. And they have elaborated and expanded upon those moments, filled it out but not drastically altered the characters or the situations or the overall thrust of the book really. Like, and then it's gone beyond what the book has, but it hasn't really changed anything.

Ashley: Yeah. Absolutely. It's a very to really especially that first season's a really clean, pretty pure adaptation. There's definitely there's definitely some expensive elements, especially when you're looking at, you know, the broader picture of of Gilead, which is the world that we're living in. And then looking beyond it, that that's kind of leaving the source material sort of behind, but it's not changing it. It's just expanding what's already there. It's taking what was a sketch and turning it into a painting essentially.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, boy. That's you put it so much more beautiful than I did. I I was like, it it just makes it bigger, and you have some poetry for it.

Ashley: It's taking it's it's doing the exact opposite of, like, what's cool about talking about these two series kind of side by side is that it they're the way that they're adapted is exactly opposite. So you're you're kind of it's a a microcosm into a macro, and then the Stephen King, the Castle Rock is more of a macro into a micro.

Joel: So for anyone familiar with Stephen King's work, there are basically, like, three big pools of books. You have your books about the town of Castle Rock and the surrounding areas, so, like, dairy, the Itbooks are all connected to those. You have the dark tower series. And of course, a lot of the books that take place in May and also connect to the dark towers in some ways. But those books are sort of different silos. And then you have his other series that maybe don't directly connect to either one of those, but in in many ways we found in his later years, he's tied everything together.

Ashley: Yes. Yes.

Joel: But the main books in particular always sort of held my attention. I come from a small town and it turns out that small towns are more alike in the north and the south and in I would imagine all over the the country and the world for that matter, then they are, like, big cities in that same state, I would think, in some ways. You know? And so many of the things that you see in books like Kuzhou and Salem's Lot, and it, and insomnia, and so many of these books that I loved reading when I was in junior high in high school, it it was the same stories that I felt like I saw in my own hometown. Minus the monsters and goblins and ghouls. Right? But the infidelity and the silent shame and hidden anemocities and the, you know, hidden race and racism and not so hidden racism, all of that stuff that's in everybody's small town. And I think that's one of the reasons why Stephen King's work is so universal. The cool thing that Castle Rock as a series has done is it's not an adaptation of any of those books. It is a sequel to all of them effectively. I didn't realize this. I have I have not read any Stephen King in several years actually. Any of the newer stuff I've been trying to go back and fill in holes basically on some of this older work that I had missed. But apparently, the last book that takes place in Castle Rock takes place in like nineteen ninety one, nineteen ninety two. And the producers of this series when they first began to sort of work on the idea of adapting and working with Steven King on on a overall project. That was one of the things that they grabbed onto. And they went directly and asked, could we tell the next story? And so that's what we have. And if you ask the producers, they really can say it canon. And so, like, if you wanna go watch, for instance, the ShawShank Redemption, the film, and then this series, some of it takes place in ShawShank Prison. Yeah. And that is the same shawshank prison that Andy Dufresne escaped from. So so, like, as a matter of fact, the warden from the film you can see his photo hanging on the wall in the prison at some point. Oh,

Ashley: I got something to do.

Joel: Yeah. Yeah. And well, and they reference him specifically by name, but there is a photo of that actor even hanging in in one of the scenes in the background. So this is specifically a sequel to not just one of those books, but all of those books. And what a brilliant idea that is because it leaves the world wide open you can adapt and, you know, retail any of the pieces of it without really negating the things that we've seen and read before. What a brilliant idea, very different than what handmaid's tale is doing, very different than what I would want the vampire chronicles to do, by the way, but it is a different it is another way to adapt a piece of literature, and I think it's been done very successfully so far.

Ashley: Oh, yeah. I would I would totally agree with that. And I think that I mean, as I'm I'm really excited just to catch those little Easter eggs. You know, I mean, throughout it as well. Most of the characters that we see in the series are not characters we've seen before. The Sheriff is an is a except action to that. He's that that same character has appeared in a few of the Castle Rock novels. But outside of the Sheriff, we really haven't seen those characters before. So I'm kind of interested to see what directions they go in and how we find out they're connected to characters we know. And if any characters we know, appear. You know what I mean? If if anyone if we run into anyone, like, I I got really excited when they referenced Juniper Hills, the asylum, because that's where Teddy Teddy Teddy's character in the body or stand by me if you saw the film. His dad was at Juniper Hills, and that's where Ola Henry Bowers from it ends up at Juniper Hills. So I kind of like those little easter eggs are so delightful to me as as a fan. I'm like, oh, I know that place. Oh, I've been there before. You know what I mean?

Joel: Yeah. No. A hundred percent. And the idea that you know, in season two, for instance, you could have a episode set in Juniper Hill and then suddenly there is bowers. You know, like you could he could be he could still be there, literally from as as a patient. You know, these things could happen. Anyway, it's it is a it's a fascinating way that they've done that. And I am very excited to see where they're gonna go moving forward. One of the recent announcement just came out in the last week or so. Castle Rock has been renewed for a second season. Of course, handmade still is already through two seasons. They're headed towards a third season. Well beyond the scope of the book at this point, I think. But again, as Ashley and I said, it's one of those things where they are expanding the world without altering the world. Nothing they're doing I I don't think anything they're planning on doing is going to negate the things that you read in the book. It's just sort of additive and and filler expansive. The Castle Rock stuff, I do wonder if it continues to be successful and if it goes on, I mean, does this mean that we can't get a Steven King novel set in Castle Rock after ninety two? Like, they've already they've written the story for him. Is it is it actually canon or does he get to Reneg and write whatever he wants to after the I mean, I guess he he lives in a universe where we have elves worlds. Right? So it could just be an alternate universe version of what happens in Castle Rock, I guess.

Ashley: For sure. I haven't I don't know how involved he how do you know how involved he is with with the project?

Joel: I don't think directly. I from the articles that I've read, I don't think he's got any actual writing input or or ongoing and, you know, executive oversight. I I am too. It is a like, look, man. Find you know, look at the partnership that George Martin has with Weiss and Benioff on Game of Thrones. It is clearly Martin's work that inspires and allows any of this to exist. No one is belittling or second guessing the contribution of the master. But Martin is not a master of film, and I think Steven King has proven through his own influenced adaptations in the past. I mean, he has had his hands directly in some pies in the past. And, you know, those have not been perfect masterpieces for for film or TV. So I think and I think the same thing can be said here. We we've talked about the importance for Anne and Christopher to partner with people who truly know and understand and are the level of creative geniuses in film and television that Anne is in literature. Yeah. They

Ashley: need to find they need to find their dear bond. You know? I think that that was for me, that was as far as Steven King adaptations go, that was a big turning point with, like, upping the quality and up in the game of of adaptations of Stephen King's work was when Dearbaud got involved. And for years, I would I would say, if Dearbaud's not doing it, it's based off anything with Stephen King. I don't even wanna watch it because I just was like, he tells he tells those stories the right way. He understands he understands how to tell tell Stephen King stories. Because he did shashank he did Greenmile, you know, he did the mist. Oh, the mist was horrifying. So I'm a huge, huge fan of of that partnership. So that's my my my greatest wish for for Anne and Christophers for them to find to find their dear bond. You know, their their show runner, their their person who is going to really, really understand how to build this world, how to create these characters, how tell these stories in the way that the fans want to want to consume it. You know what I mean?

Joel: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's that's exactly what we need. Is Deribon available? I don't know

Ashley: what's into it. Listen. Thank you. So

Joel: So let's let's move into our our spoiler discussion. Let me just say one more thing here as a tease. If you have not started watching Castle Rock yet, and you are with Ashley and I. You enjoy Steven King's work. In particular, you enjoy the work that he and Frank Deribat have done in the past together. Here's one more t's, the same, and I can't remember the name off the top of my head. But the same composer that worked on Shake Shack Redemption and many other, I believe he did the Green Mile as well, But the same composer that worked on Shashank Redemption is the composer for the series Castle Rock, and you will hear the Shashank Redemption theme occasionally when the prison shows up in the series too. So no spoilers there, but some welcome additions that will will again make it all feel of a piece. So dive into that series if you like Stephen King at all. Alright. So here is the the spoiler war torn going off folks. We're gonna discuss first and foremost a handmaid's tale and and our thoughts specifically about the series and some of the individual moments and character development. Let me tell you first and foremost my biggest problem with the series, Ashley, because we've gushed over it a lot. Here is of all the terrible things. And you mentioned it earlier, like, it's a hard show to binge. You tried to watch it all at once. You tried to watch it back to back and it's like, what am I doing to myself? In in many ways, it seems so much harder than something like Game of Thrones or or deadwood or Westworld or any of those shows there are because it is so close to something you could imagine happening. It is it is not far from the imaginable. So My biggest problem in watching the series is not the scenes of rape. It's not the scenes of physical violence. It is it's not any of that. My biggest problem watching this series and it's more so in this series than in any other I've ever watched. The infidelity hurts me.

Ashley: Really?

Joel: Badly. Yeah.

Ashley: Really?

Joel: So yeah. So the the series for obviously, if you're this far into it, either you've watched it or you're not interested in watching it. Series is about young women fertile women being forced into servent hood for the wealthy elites in a post apocalyptic America. It is called Gilead is the name of the country, and the elites have handmaids that bear their children in a monthly ceremony of of forced rate. It's it's fairly terrible. But the main character finds a relationship with one of the one of her commanders, one of her owners, other servants, effectively one of the low men. He's not an elite. He is one of the servant class, he works as the driver, and they fall in love, honestly. But she's got a husband. Like she she has a family before all of this starts, and she discovers in the course of the series that her husband is still alive. I don't blame her for falling for this man. I don't blame her for seeking solace and physical comfort with someone. I'm Imagine I would do similar and similar circumstances.

Ashley: It's

Joel: a very human response to your situation. Sure.

Ashley: For sure.

Joel: But at the same time, the ongoing nature of that infidelity just hurts me. I just it makes me more uncomfortable than anything else in the show. The violence I understand and she bears it so well and it's you can see in her face, she is not defeated, she is not overcome, you know, they they may own her body, but they don't own her mind, and they won't own her body forever. You know, like, that is the message of the series over and over and over again. And so when those horrible moments come, it does not hurt me. But I know even in an an eventual imagined happy ending when she and her husband and her family are reunited, north of the border and the safe confines of Canada, she will have still slept around on her husband by a choice many times with a man that she cared about and perhaps still cares about. And that breaks my heart.

Ashley: Yeah. I totally thought you meant like, the infidelity with the commanders. So I told him when you first started talking, I was like, what in the world? Why? Why is that what bothers him? Like

Joel: No. There's nothing.

Ashley: With the handmaids. So I totally can see your point. I do think it's it's gonna make for a real awkward reunion down the line for sure. And, you know, there's it's definitely implied multiple times that her the baby she just had in season two is actually the driver's baby and not waterfords.

Joel: Oh, yeah. Almost definitely.

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much pretty much a a confirmed thing. So there's that added aspect to it as well. Yeah. I can I totally see that point? What bothers me I think what bothers me the most is the psychological warfare that's used against these women that are being held in captivity. Okay. And and like the season season two opens with one of the most, like, I just sat and, like, scream cried over it. And I was, well, I watched it in the bath stub. That's where I streamed many of my television shows is from the bathtub. I was watching at the tub, and I just sat in the tub, just scream crying over that scene where they were like, they all thought they were about to get hanged. It was so intense. It was so so horrifying, and it was so oh, it was so viceral to me. It just it just bothered me so much. And they were just fucking with them. You know, like, they were just scaring them. They were just showing them how little control they have. Have. And those scenes those scenes where we're reminded because there are times that you almost forget how awful the world that they've created is like not long times. But, like, you know, things will be going along kind of okay for a little while and you're like, oh, everything's maybe maybe so and so is her side, maybe everything's gonna be okay, and then everything just goes to hell in a hand basket. You know? And that's the stuff that really, really sits with me horribly. And there were also, you know, you do get a little desensitized to the, you know, the monthly ceremony, but there was there was a rape scene where they were trying to induced labor that was the most horrifying thing I've ever watched on television. Like, I I was completely horrified. Like, I thought I was gonna vomit. And I have a lot of friends who can't watch the show. Like, literally, especially lady friends who are like, I can't watch that. It is, like, I don't it's not entertaining. I was like, well, it's not really about entertaining. It's not supposed This isn't an entertaining show. You don't watch it because you're like, oh, wow. What a great episode? That was your fun. You know, it's not friends. It's not it's not a hoot. So it is it is so I I don't know. It's lessons. It's it's it's it's things we need to be paying attention to and it's and it's so much more than entertainment. You know, and I get that it's hard to watch. It is really hard to watch. And a lot of it can be super triggering depending on your personal life experience and things like So I understand not being able to get through it, a hundred percent, but I make myself watch it even when it hardifies me.

Joel: So I you're you're absolutely right. That is not for everyone and anyone is entitled to absolutely troll and limit their own pop culture intake -- No. -- to to protect themselves and to keep safe boundaries, God knows in this time and day with the news stories that we are seeing and being bombarded by constantly, we don't need to add to our horror. However, I would say that always throughout history, literature has enabled us to experience horror and tragedy and sadness and victory and accomplishment and overcoming obstacles and all of the different elements of the human experience. From the comfort and safety of our own home and armchair, it allows us to see beyond our own front door and our own hometown and our own experiences and our own skin. And the modern television landscape is not a replacement for literature. That's not what I'm saying. However, I am saying that television in some of its forms, absolutely in the modern era has risen to the level of art that is achieved by literature. And for many people in their day to day life through habit or a hurry or whatever the case may be, do not have the time or the inclination or the ability. Like, maybe they just don't have even literally the vocabulary or the understanding to really dive into a book. And to build that headspace for themselves so that they can have the experience with it that you and I had as kids, not everyone is a reader. That's just true.

Ashley: Yep. Absolutely.

Joel: So is it wrong to extend that experience? And those enlightened thoughts and conversations and ideas and discussions and concepts to people that don't read or that can't read or that won't read you know, on an ongoing basis that won't read a full novel, like, no, I don't think that's wrong. I I don't think it's wrong at all to extend these tough conversations and tough concepts and and challenging ideas and storylines to people who watch television. Oh,

Ashley: I totally understand. And the fact

Joel: that and the fact that you and I who do experience it on the page as well as experience it on television. The fact that you and I can revisit it in a more concise form through the eyes and editing of a different set of creators. Like, why wouldn't we go and revisit the I listen. I love the rolling stones, and I love their version of wild horses, but I think the flying burrito brothers version is better. Like, aretha Franklin covered respect, folks. That's an Otis Reading song. You know what I mean? Like so anyway, I I think that that the idea that you, like, belittle it or toss it offers say that it's it's not it's only entertainment, and so it shouldn't be this challenging is is wrong, I think. So That's what I'm gonna say about that. Now, I will say, you were absolutely right about the the indoctrination scenes. They're horrible. The other thing that is super frustrating to me is the fact that this woman keeps going back to her

Ashley: captors in Yes. What in the world, June? She's Christ's sake. She's been like, she's had options to escape a couple of times down in the series, like, realistically, had

Joel: a shot at freedom. And for different reasons, reasons you understand, reasons that make sense to the course of the series, reasons that I might even agree with if, you know, as a parent, but holy moly man like No. We don't need to we we you gotta stay on that truck at the end of season too.

Ashley: She she just

Joel: she broke my heart. There are there are people there. You can join the freedom fight from Canada. Dude, let go.

Ashley: Yeah. And you actually would have help then. And you would not be in the crappiest of situations. If, you know, like, please please go meet up with your friends and family and then go get your daughter. You could still go get your daughter going to Canada does does not mean that you can't go back and get your daughter. Ugh. Yes. I was very, very frustrated with with her the several times this season. I was like, what are we doing? June? What are we doing? The

Joel: the wife character, the primary wife, Serena Joy. Is it

Ashley: right? Yes. Yes.

Joel: Okay. She the way that they have added to her character in the series versus what and I'm not done with the book yet. I'm listening to the audiobook again as I think I've mentioned on the show before. But the things the the way that they've fully fleshed her out as a character, it's again, there just seems to be more depth in the series than there is in the book. And of course, there's more content in the end now through two seasons. But I've been super impressed with that. She's great actress too. I've I've loved her and lots of things over the years. I am desperate though to see what happens next with her. What is the resolution of her story line, and in particular, how we find some sort of I I think this is a finite series too, by the way. I really don't think that there's six or seven seasons in this story. I I think the third or fourth one might be as far as you would wanna take it because you're gonna get into the minutia and it's really it becomes a different thing than it than I think they were aiming for at that point. But to give her resolution and some sort of, like, finality to the art that they've laid out for her, I think, would be impressive and and worthwhile. I would love obviously to see her get some revenge and to see her, I don't know, add to the crumbling of the empire that she was so responsible for building.

Ashley: Yeah. I think that they've really they've really been able to give all the characters some depth that didn't necessarily expect going into it. And I felt, you know, I go back and forth on that character a lot, like, on Serena feeling sympathy for her and then feeling like complete and utter betrayal. You know, she's such they really have made that character a lot more complex. And again, you know, when you're when you read it, it's all first person, like, I and I mean, I could be wrong about that, but if I remember correctly, it's it's pretty much you know, first person narration, you're getting June's it's all June's perspective, you know. It's -- Mhmm. -- you're all seeing everything through June's eyes. And so to see kind of to get to see kind of where these other characters are coming from. Goodbad and ugly, I think, is really, really enrich the story down to, like, Commander Waterford. Is a horrible human being. And and is even more reveals himself to be even more horrible as you go along, you know. I I think in in season one, you kind of got the impression that maybe he had some redeemable qualities. But at this point, I just am like, your total scumbag and I really like you, Josephine's, but I'm really, really would punch you in the face if I saw you on the street.

Joel: Oh, god. You're so right. I so on him in particular in the first season, I thought especially towards the end as you're beginning to see, like, the beginnings of the Republic of Gilead and how they first formed their their current laws, I thought Oh, this is going to be the example of how even the patriarchy in this extreme patriarchal society don't really get what they want. In the end, like, yes, they are they are in a better position than others in society, but it's not a happy life for them either. And I thought that's the way the story was going. You are so the turn and the moment to me that I mean, there are lots of terrible moments. He is a person who does endless terrible things over the course of the series. But the moment of complete irredeemability in my mind was and you already referenced it, when he rapes her at the basically, the moment of birth. Like, she is she's ready to give birth at any moment now and to try to force labor he rapes her again. It is so abhorrent and and was just like, it's one of those it's like the moment and again, the mild spoilers for a couple of seasons ago in Game of Thrones. It's like getting to watch the Bolton kid get eaten by his dogs. I now I want real punishment for this man.

Ashley: Oh, yeah. For sure. For sure. I I really hope something completely dreadful happens to him. Yes, let's feed him to dogs. I'm into that. Let's do that.

Joel: Alright. There we go. That's our prediction for season three. Waterford feeding feeding himself to dogs. I'm all about it. We see if we could get We need Brian Fuller as a executive producer. He could bring Hannibal over, and Hannibal could feed him to the dogs. It would work great.

Ashley: Or eat him. Just eat him. I don't care.

Joel: With the side of favavines and a nice chianti. Yeah. Okay. So so now here we are. We're gonna move over spoiler horn once more. Let's move over and talk about Castle Rock a little bit. So Castle Rock, let's discuss, I suppose, and and still many mysteries for us. We we are both through episode six. The name of that episode was the filter. And I believe as we're releasing this podcast episode. There's already another one live on Hulu, excuse me, on Hulu, but we haven't seen that one yet. So let's start with this. You referenced him already. Sheriff, Alan Pangbourne. Retired Sheriff at this point played in the series via

Ashley: Sutherland

Joel: Guess, Scott Glen, I it's funny. My wife said, where do we know him from? And I immediately, without reservation said, he was kill bill, honey. And then I went, no, wait a minute. He's

Ashley: not. That

Joel: was not kill bill.

Ashley: He was -- He was. -- site Crawford in silence of the lambs. He was the head of the behavioral science unit in silence of the lambs. He was in the right stuff. I love Scott Glen. I love him.

Joel: So the the the current reference for me and what I have in my head for his voice is stick from the daredevil series on Netflix and also He appears in the defenders as well, the crossover series. He plays the mentor for daredevil. He's a blind kung fu master Maybe he's ancient. Maybe he's not. We're not exactly sure how old his character is in the series. And I think that was the connection. I mean, I put I put him and build together in my head, not only because they look a little alike, but also because they're both these sort of like aged kung fu masters with with a little SaaS too. But what a great choice for Pangborn, I think. In particular, the before this, the reference for Pangborn for me is Anne Harris in the nay needful things -- Yeah. -- TV or excuse me, movie. One of my favorite adaptations of Stephen King period one of my favorite books from Stephen King. Actually, I love Needful Things. I love the story. Anytime the devil comes to town and we have to do you know, battle with him directly. I find that very thrilling. I also really enjoy when the devil doesn't need minions he uses us and our own selfishness and greed and avarice etcetera etcetera as his minions. I think that is a more true and a more insightful view on the human experience than than most of the other versions of good versus evil. That we see in literature. So I was excited that this character plays such a big role in the series. I'm very excited to see potentially connections to the story of Neifel Things. For instance, we have this character of the Kid who in at the end of episode one, we're led to believe or at least the the former warden was led to believe. This this boy played by Bill Star Skarsgard is the devil. Very clearly, there is some sort of evil that follows him or is attracted to him or emanates from him or however you want to describe it. But definitely no good things happen when he is around. That is clear in the course of the series even through the first two or three episodes. Whether he is any relation to mister Gaunt, the character from Needful Things. That's something that I'm very much looking forward to because, again, we know this Sheriff has already literally faced down the devil. I love it. I love it.

Ashley: Yeah. I it okay. I have to say it freaks me out because this actor also plays Pennywise. Yes. The new adaptation of it. So that's in the back of my mind too. Like, I can't I'm trying to figure out if that's an intentional casting or if that's and incidental casting. But that's really I don't know. I can't get that out of my head. It bothers me, I guess, to some to some degree because it's hard for me to look at him and not and not put that clown face on him. And because it's because of the material, it just I don't know. Like, that seems like such a specific casting choice to make. There's probably lots of actors that could have played that. So I part of me just wonder too if it's like if it's like that rebirth of evil. You know what I mean? We see it with with flag in in many of Stephen King's works where flag is a character that we see repeatedly in different iterations and And so part of me is like, is this the monster coming back? But I do think too you hit the nail on the head talking about how the use of people to commit the atrocities that you want to have that you want to commit as far as, like, the devil, not using minions, but using people. That's classic Stephen King. I mean, the people are the monsters, and that's like an underlying theme in a lot of the in a lot of the dairy books and a lot in in a lot of the Castle Rock books. It's the the evil the evil that simmering below a surface of people. And I I'm so excited to kind of see how that plays out in this in this adaptation as well.

Joel: There's a great quote the the prison guard. I I can't remember his name now, but the prison guard that we get to know and then eventually commit suicide and I think about episode four or so. He says at one point bad things happen in Castle Rock because bad people know they can get away with it here.

Ashley: Yes.

Joel: And that is, to me, like, yep, yeah, okay. Maybe you do live over a hell mouth. But it's not the it's it's not spike that is causing the rash of deaths in your town. It's the fact that everybody knows that your neighbors are gonna look the other way. And so all the all the monsters move to town. It is a it is a fascinating series so far to me. You I had not really thought about the fact, and and you've referenced it earlier that Penguin is really the only like ongoing character actually from another series. There have been a lot of references. The warden specifically mentions He talks about kuzhou. He doesn't call him by name, but

Ashley: he references.

Joel: Don't you remember the dog? Don't you remember strangler, you know, there's references to the dead zone. There's references to the body. There's references to the to stand by me, the film

Ashley: -- Yes. -- and

Joel: the story stand

Ashley: by me. And the body. Yeah.

Joel: So, like, all of these things are there in the background working around. I love the character of Jackie Torres. Let's talk about her for a minute. First of all, her name and I I don't know the actress's name, but to me it is like they tried very hard to hire the blonde girl from community, and they could not get her, so they hired this young actress instead and changed her hair aisle. Am I wrong? You know who I'm talking about?

Ashley: No.

Joel: Okay. Hang on. Let me I'm gonna look up her I'm gonna look up this this actress' name.

Ashley: So Same Jane Levy is playing Jackie Torres.

Joel: What what is her what is the actress's name?

Ashley: Jane Levy.

Joel: Jane Levy. Okay. So Alison not Alison Brie. Jillian Jacobs is the one that I'm thinking about. She played Brita in the show community. And she's now got her own series on Netflix. She does a show was it is it called Love I think yeah. Love. She was in love, and there's life of the party. She was in the new movie. Life of the party too. But anyway, she's got that, like, very first of all, again, she's very sassy. She's, like, I don't care. It's a very attractive of girl, but she looks like she doesn't want you to think she ever tries to be attractive kind of girl, you know

Ashley: what I mean?

Joel: Which is very much going on with the Jackie Torres character. Anyway, the whole character to me screams, we tried to hire Gillian Jacobs and Gillian was unavailable because she works at Netflix. And so we hired this woman instead. But maybe that's my own maybe that's my own limited knowledge. Where do you know this actress from?

Ashley: I don't you know, I've seen her in a couple of things. I was just kinda scrolling through IMGB. She was in that series subrogatory. That's where I recognize her from. Mhmm. Like, that's where I recognize her face from. I didn't really watch that show, but I I recognize that her recognize her from that. And she was that played kind of like a sarcastic kind of I mean, to me, the type she's playing is very on point for that actress and what I've seen her in before, kind of like that sort of sardonic kind of knowing sort of sarcastic kind of friend. She's definitely fulfilling that type of role in this. The name though, it's clearly, like, the Jack Torrance was the dad from the Shining. And so the second I heard her name, I I burst out laughing because it's literally, like, just a a a real blatant reference to the to the dad from the shining.

Joel: Wait a minute. She was in the evil dead remake from twenty thirteen. She's not she's not the new she's not the replacement for ash. Is she?

Ashley: No. She thinks she was the girl.

Joel: Oh, the the, like, the one that gets possessed or whatever. Okay.

Ashley: Yeah. But I can go wrong about that too.

Joel: Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Well, I my my my me a couple to Jane, then I my apologies. I I will try to get better acquainted with your work. I will say this. I like her a lot in the role. And you're absolutely right. She references at one point in the show. Jackie is not her name. She is a like a cousin or maybe a great niece or something like that to Jack Torrance and his wife one would imagine. But because her family never talks about what happened to them. The fact that he went crazy and killed his family, or tried to kill his family in a in a hotel one time, she uses the she took on the name basically to piss off her parents and in reference to the fact that she also wants to be a rider like Jack Torrance from the Shining. The interesting thing to me though on that is, that means that doctor sleep exists in this world. Right? I mean, that means that data is out there somewhere.

Ashley: Absolutely. A hundred percent. I love it. I like, I there's so many directions they can go and even if they don't go in any of those directions, you know it's an option. You know what I mean? So it's always gonna that's always gonna be an undercurrent to it. For me, personally, as as this, like, long term Stephen King reader, like, the options are so endless. And so it makes me wanna watch more and see more of the series because I they could go so many delightful directions that would bring back or reference beloved or hated characters from, you know, from thirty, forty years' worth of novels. It's pretty awesome.

Joel: Absolutely, it is. Absolutely, it is. CC's basic. We haven't mentioned CC's basic as the the main character's mother. And of course, She originally started her run with Stephen King Stories. She plays Ruth Deaver in the series. She originally started as Kerry. She

Ashley: played Kerry

Joel: in the original adaptation of that film. Many times they remade that now. Three or four already. Yeah. I love I love the fact that they brought Sissy back for this though, and she's really, really good in the role too.

Ashley: She's awesome, and she is rocking that main accent too. Like, she's I think she really, really did her research as an actor. Like, she sounds amazing. She's really the only one that's kind of delved in and really approached the dialect, I feel like. But I think that she sounds amazing and is is obviously killing it, you know. It's a complicated character and I think it's she's yeah. She's fabulous. That was great casting.

Joel: So the the surprise to me, and I didn't know this actress and I didn't have much expectation for the character at first either, but I've really grown to love her. Is Molly Strand. The the next door neighbor for the main character, Will Deaver or excuse me, Henry Deaver, Molly plays the real estate agent in town. She is played by Melanie Linski. And the character seems to be at least having a bit of the shining. I mean, you you can't call it any other thing than that. It is it is the shining. That is clearly what it is. She's she hasn't called it that yet. She doesn't seem to have ever been trained or mentored by anyone who has any abilities. But at the same time though, she does reference the fact that she's got a long family history in the area. She there's in one of the latter episodes, she's on TV, and she talks about being, like, a fifth generation maniac. I wonder if she's also a fifth generation practitioner of, you know, the empathic arts or whatever you wanna call it?

Ashley: Yeah. I really her character is is really interesting to me and love that they're introducing, like, a potential drug problem with her trying to mute out the the shine, you know, I think that's also a classic classic Steven King trope as well. I'm trying to figure out, like and I've kind of been just kind of cycling through trying to figure out if her name if that reference if if there's characters that I can attach her to, but I haven't I haven't been able to do that yet. I haven't been able to remember, but that name their last name sounds familiar. Yes.

Joel: So it does. And a lot of the many of the last names are connected. One of the things that I've been doing actually to sort of shortcut this, I I don't have a podcast, unfortunately, to recommend for handmade sale. I haven't dived in there. I'm sure there are Apple in the Apple Podcast Store and and elsewhere for you. But I will say if you're interested in Castle Rock and you want to follow those King Connections, especially things from the novels. They're doing a great job discussing that stuff on a show I've started listening to called The Castle Rock Zone. It's from some buddies of mine over at Golden Spiro Media. There's a link in the show notes for it, but Castle Rock's own podcast. Look that up. They put out one episode each one of the episodes on the show. And they are, again, diving very deep. Each week, they're talking about, like, they're focusing on how highlighting, I guess, one movie and or book, and they're putting all the links in the in their show notes that you can go and follow-up on. So, like, I think this past week, Carrie was the episode that they talked about a couple of weeks ago. They focused on the stand as far as, like, the different things that were referenced in that episode. But many of, like, the last names they've been pulling up and going, oh, that happens to be, you know, this guy's For instance, here's one example. Desjardins, the family, the the two brothers that may or may not have held Henry Deaver in the box at some point when he was a child. The Desjardins are related to or excuse me, one of the Desjardins, the one that's dead. The older brother that's dead, was a member of the gang in Standby Me. He he's in that book. He's like one of the ancillary sort of Ruffians. And there are a bunch of other connections like that that they've brought up that I just hadn't noticed or had overlooked. So It's been really, really good to hear that. And that way, you don't have to dive too deep into the Wikipedia holes. It can be it can be challenging to try to follow them all back. But I do like to sort of get ahead of where they might be going with these characters. And when it's clear that they've laid out a clue in the name or connection to a family member or or a past story for this house or that family or whatever just because they haven't gonna really spelled it out in the series yet. Doesn't mean that that's not coming down the road. So if you are

Ashley: a good series beforehand, it's cool. Yeah. It makes me really happy that they're doing that because he does that himself in his writing. You know? Like, we've already kind of touched on that, but there's literally references character references references to other places, like, within his writing itself, references to other books. You know, there's a reference in in the stand that refers back to something that happens and not in standard in it, something that happens back in the the shining that's referenced in the shining. So I I just I love that something as a reader I enjoy so much, so I'm so glad that the show is incorporating some of that even if it's just in, like, Easter egg form, even if it's just for us to, like, hear and think, oh, I remember that from, you know, from this book or from that book. So I love that they're kind of mirroring his own his own tactics.

Joel: Agreed. Agreed. So hopes for the series moving forward. We've still got probably I'm I'm actually not sure how many episodes we're gonna get in the first season. There's they're six deep so far. I would guess we've we've got at least twelve total, maybe thirteen at the most for the first season, and it's already been renewed for a second season. The cool thing or one of the cool things that I think about this is that they have said each season of this show will be a contained storyline. They have not said whether or not characters will move forward and continue from season to season. So we could go to a completely different place in the timeline for Castle Rock, for instance. They could tell a story from the eighteen hundreds, one season if they wanted to. If fast forward and tell a story from the future if they wanted to. We could have a whole season where they tell the story of needful things, for instance. Or it even if you wanted to. I think that's very interesting possibilities, and all of those are there. Here's what I hope. I hope we do have some ongoing characters. I would love to see for instance, especially Scott Glynn, and Bill Skarsgard continue. I think both of them bring a lot of weight to their characters. I think those characters by the nature of what we know about them so far, and in particular with with Alan Tangbourne because of his past history, I think they could make them a very grounding influence while at the same time providing a lot of opportunities and alternatives without closing too much off. So I think those allow for the most potential, even if you wanna shift things pretty drastically, especially with Skarsgard and that character if he he turns out to truly be ageless as seems to be implied so far, you know, you could go back to the eighteen hundreds and still have Skarsgard be the had Kai at the end of the season, you know, if you wanted to. That would be pretty compelling to me. I think it is most likely that we're going to discover eventually that he is either not actually a malevolent influence that the that the evil is drawn to him in some fashion, but that he is actually a guardian or or some sort of being for the light side of things, or alternatively, I think it is possible that he could be an incarnation of flag. Not the devil as he has answered directly. No, I'm not the devil. He said that. But he is an emissary of the Crimson King. If that's the case, if he is a random flag. And I think that it's I think that it's possible that he could be that underling that would be the most exciting to me as if we get to have a few seasons with him playing his will out, on this town in different ways and and coming into his own, potentially and this is something that's occurred to me actually just in the last episode or two. It might be that he is a a being like that, that he is a Randall flag, and that part of the process of his incarceration or whatever happened to him before it, has resulted in him losing his memories. You know, he knows he is a being of power but he doesn't actually know who he is. Yeah.

Ashley: And when flag doesn't always remember.

Joel: Exactly. Exit. That's my thought too. Yeah. Always. Sometimes when you when you come through the world, when you when you move from world to world, things can happen, I think. Yeah. Absolutely. So some really compelling opportunities there, and I love him as an actor. I think you already mentioned the the reference to Pennywise. Like, I don't believe that he is Pennywise. I do think that this casting is not by accident. And I think it should suggest something to us of those elder god forces that king often hints to, but doesn't come directly out and talk about much in his stories. You know, and we've talked about it. It's it's always the the human bad guys the the little minions on the ground, not the greater forces at play, but you do occasionally get a glimpse of what those greater forces are. I think it's possible that that that's what that could be as well. And that's very exciting to me. Yeah.

Ashley: I'm I'm really excited to see how how all of that plays out. And how they define that character a little bit more specifically as it goes along. And and and to see how much is, you know, is a bait and switch, you know, like you said, like, Is evil or is evil just attracted to him? You know, I I any direction they go, I'm sure it's gonna be fantastic, but I I do love I do love the idea of him being some sort of flag type character. That's that's excellent to me. I mean, but he's flag is my old school favorite villain, you know.

Joel: Well, he's the first villain in so many ways. I mean, you know, the way that king has portrayed him over the years, he very much comes off as that archetypical epic level bad, you know. And I and I having that at the center of your series, again played by somebody who likes scarsGuard, I think is just fine. You know, we've talked about the connection to Pennywise and maybe that casting was on purpose. On the flip side, Skarsgard is one of the weirdest looking actors in Hollywood and is capable of that, like, ongoing menacing evil more than maybe anybody else around. I don't know if you've ever watched it. But he's in a Netflix series. What is the name of what is the name of his Netflix series? It's vampires and werewolves and whatnot. Hemlock Grove. It went for three seasons, I think, on Netflix. Fampke Jansen plays his mother in that series. And they are some sort of vampires. It's not we haven't finished it yet, and it's never really exactly explained what they are. But, yeah, that is a very cool series and he plays this brooding minusing maybe possibly unhinged evil, you know, all the way through that series as well. Very, very, very cool stuff. And I he's one of my favorites actually if you're looking for a bad guy. It's like him or what's the kid from American horror story? You know who I'm talking about? The the blonde kid on American horror story.

Ashley: Oh, yeah.

Joel: What is his name? Ethan something. Hang on. I'm looking it up. I'm way wrong. Evan. Evan Peters.

Ashley: Evan Peters. Yeah.

Joel: He played Quicksilver in the X Men movies.

Ashley: Yes. Yes.

Joel: He he is so terrifying to me in the American horror series. And I feel like we've got our version of that in Skarsgard for Castle Rock.

Ashley: He was horrifying as penny wise. He scared the hell out of me. And there is, you know, I I loved Tim Curry. Tim Curry's pennywise to me was terrifying and fantastic and caught that, like, funny edge of the character too, like, really caught all sides of it. But the cool thing I think about this new iteration, this new version of it that came out was that he looks the way he's described in like, when they're looking at the old school photographs of him like the old historic photos that they find pennywise in the background of, he is dressed like that. That's how the character looks. And so there are so many things about about it that look that to me, look more like the way he was described in the book. So I find it so much more horrifying than I found Tim Curry because Tim Curry really caught, like, the that funny sort of edge of the character that menacing but, like, humor with it, whereas, like, there is not much of that in in this new iteration of pennywise, he is freaking horrifying. So scary.

Joel: Agreed. Agreed. I was a big, big fan of well, I'm just a big fan of Tim Curry period, and I was a huge fan of that original mini series, I I thought it was super, super good. It was well adapted. They told the story well. They've changed some things. For instance, I had for I'd completely forgotten. I had completely forgotten until the new adaptation of it came out that in the book it the kids finish off killing pennywise and then have an orgy in the sewers. I totally forgotten.

Ashley: Oh, yeah. One of the most unnecessary scenes in all of literature.

Joel: Totally forgotten that that was there until the movie came out and people started talking about how are they gonna handle this. And when I went back and, like, sort of went over that, I was, like, oh, man. Because in my head, I guess, I had just given all of that the I I remembered the mini series more than the book, really. I remembered Tim Curry. So the fact that once once I went through the movie that Skarsgard didn't bother me that I didn't come out of it, like complaining about Skarskars performance in relation to Curry's, I was very impressed. I I think again, it doesn't replace what he what went before. It's a very different choice on everything. But it's like in many ways, it's like Jack Nicholson's Joker and Heath Ledger's Joker -- Absolutely. -- different thing for a different time and a different version of the story.

Ashley: That's a really, really a really good comparison actually. I think that that's very, very accurate. Like, because I agree, I loved I loved the mini series. I think that there were I think they captured, like, the kids part of it was better than the adults part because I think that that's there's just something that about it that's maybe a little hard to act. If you don't, you have to really You have to be so genuine in your acting choices when you're playing something so supernatural. If you don't believe it, if you think it's stupid, if you feel self conscious as an actor, that comes across in the And I think that that did hang up a couple of the adult performers in the mini series. So I'm a little bit more trepidation about the second film for that reason. But I think that I think they knocked this first one out of the park. I was so good and scary and really well cast. I feel like the adult cast for the second this for the second film is amazing and really on point to you. So I think that I think that we have a really good movie to look forward to in that.

Joel: The only thing that I'm mad about with the with the adult cast is that Amy Adams was not cast as the adult version of the girl. Who did they cast for the adult version of the girl? It's Jessica Chastain. Right.

Ashley: I think she's perfect.

Joel: She's great. I agree with you, but the young actress has so many mannerisms that are the same as Amy Adams. I could not help but imagine her. Like, I honestly was confused watching her play the the first version of it here. This this first adaptation, the children's side of the story. I, like, I was just sure they had to count. I was, like, they must have already got Amy signed or else, why would you cast this girl? And why would you have her act this way? Like, honest to goodness. Go back with within your mind. Go look at some of those scenes from it and tell me that she is not playing Amy Adams. It's crazy. It's crazy.

Ashley: I love to hear that. Jessica Chestaine was my choice. She was my number one choice. And

Joel: she's gonna be great. No. There's no doubt she's gonna be great. And in some ways, I think it will likely cause, like, maybe a shift in that character as she moves into adulthood. You'll see that transition more maybe than if it was was Amy. I'm very I I like anything you put you in MacGregor in. I was not he I was not expecting him for Bill, but I like anything you put you in MacGregor and so I'm down for that. He by the way, he was just injured on set. Did you see that? He

Ashley: No.

Joel: Yes, he he what did what did he do? He strained both of his thighs, fighting pennywise, apparently. Will

Ashley: be one. You have to take better care of yourself.

Joel: I know. Right? That's what he's getting on up here in years. So anyway, folks, Castle Rock and Handmaids tell both we cannot recommend them enough on Hulu check them out now. And I think overall, those two series and the rest of what we've seen come out about this series in in development should have us very, very positive and hopeful for the stories of our favorite vampires. I think future is very bright.

Ashley: Yes, indeed, we have much to look forward to. Howard

Joel: Bauchner: So, Ashley, before we go, I want to remind people that can find us, of course, always at articulate coven dot com. They can find us on Apple Podcasts. You can listen to us in Spotify. You can find us in stitcher radio and in pocket cast and all sorts of other podcast apps basically anywhere that you find podcasts. However, I I have some interesting news. I'm going to have to stop saying that we are the only podcast about An Rice and the Vampyre Chronicles and Apple Podcasts. Now we have company.

Ashley: Someone joined us?

Speaker 3: We do. Someone did. In June was the first episode. I have not listened to this show yet. But it's out there. And I wanted to mention it, I feel a little flattered. I'm sure they didn't get the name from us, but I'm still gonna claim it anyway. They are known as the coven

Joel: of the inarticulate

Speaker 3: and are on Apple podcasts. As well. It something's wrong with their feed. Their order their episodes don't seem to be an order. But, anyway, I'm gonna I'm gonna try to listen to that, and I I did wanna mention them we we could be a little flatter. We have company now in the -- Yay. -- the Apple podcast

Joel: store. The more the merrier folks everybody needs to come and cover in rice and everybody needs to cover our beloved List Dot. Soon, we will be back with you with an episode discussing the queen of the damned. We're covering the novel first, and then we'll go into the film adaptation starring the late great Aliyah. I'm very excited for that.

Ashley: Yes. I that movie is terribly terrible and excellent. I I'm very excited to talk about it. Terrible adaptation, but there's some it's got a great soundtrack.

Joel: It's got a great soundtrack. And ain't that what you always wanna say about your movie? It's got a great soundtrack. Folks, we want you to leave us a review. Check us out if you're enjoying the show, leave us a review in Apple Podcasts. That's helpful for other people to find us. Here's the latest one. This comes from Serge glitch from France. Five stars, I'm so glad this podcast exists. And we are so glad that it exists as well. We'll try to make more of it so that it can exist longer and more satisfyingly for all of you. Until we speak to it again, this has been the articulate Kevin, the unofficial podcast and fan community for Anne Rice and her Vampire Chronicles TV series I have been one of your host, Joel Sharpton.

Ashley: And I'm Ashley Redeiler.

Joel: And we are the articulate company. Thanks for listening to the Articulate Coveen. You can join our community on Facebook by following the links in the show notes. Or searching for articulate COVID on Facebook. You can subscribe to the show in Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, or at articulate coven dot com. And share us with your And Rise loving friends.